Installing Outwales

Welcome to the new Bear Mountain Builders Forum - an interactive internet service we provide to encourage communication between canoe and kayak builders
User avatar
WMegl
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:58 pm
Location: St. Louis, Missouri

Installing Outwales

Post by WMegl »

I am attaching my outwales with epoxy on a Redbird. The upward curve at the bow and stern require that I bend the outwales to the point that I'm not sure the epoxy will hold them. I can push them into position, but it requires quite a bit of force.

Also, it will be a challenge to design a suport system for the clamps on the angles at the bow and stern that will clamp hard enough to hold the outwales in place.

Should I steam the ends and bend them prior to installation?

They are made from cherry.

I don't want to install them with screws with or without plugs if I can help it.

Thank you.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/WytnVMQbgesdGRDy6
First Timer
User avatar
Jim Dodd
Posts: 1359
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:08 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Installing Outwales

Post by Jim Dodd »

Nice looking hull !
The Old timers would taper the outwhales, gradually at the ends. Say 3" from the ends.This allowed outwhales to bend much easier. Don't thin them though.

Once you have the outwhales epoxied to the Hull. Leave the clamps in place at least a week, to get a full cure.

You could steam them also. I've never tried to steam Cherry ! Maybe others could offer more help !

Here is a pic of Dragon's Teeth I use to prevent the clamps from slipping off the ends.
Image
Image
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!
User avatar
Jim Dodd
Posts: 1359
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:08 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Installing Outwales

Post by Jim Dodd »

I don't like screws or plugs showing on my outwhales either !
Image

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!
User avatar
WMegl
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:58 pm
Location: St. Louis, Missouri

Re: Installing Outwales

Post by WMegl »

Jim: I have tapered the last 32 in. of the inside of the outwales and I think it did make it a little easier to bend, but it seems I need a lot of force to hold them to the shear line. I like your clamp jigs. I have conceptualized the same thing. Is that blue tape on the side that contacts the hull? How did you keep the jig from sliding forward?

Thanks.
First Timer
User avatar
Cruiser
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:21 am
Location: Bowmanville, Ontario

Re: Installing Outwales

Post by Cruiser »

I do a lot of my trim in cherry and it steam bends very nicely .... you will likely need a jig of some sort if you decide to steam bend the gunnel ends, as you will be bending in 2 directions. A bit of work for sure, but the result will be a much easier time placing and clamping. If you do make a jig of some sort, realize there is about a 15% springback, so make the bend a little more pronounced than you measure.

The issue with forcing them into place under stress and trying to clamp, is that the epoxy will act as a "grease" and the wood may slip, unless your clamping system employs some sort of "hard stop" to prevent sliding during curing. Devising the clamping is doable, but I think it may be a better option to relieve some of that stress on the wood, before it is epoxied in place.

Given that the gunnels don't really contribute much (and really don't need to) at this location on the hull, I guess another option is to taper both dimensions of the gunnel for that last 3 feet to ease bending. You don't state the initial gunnel size, but typically they are over built and there is a lot of "meat" to work with, the only real consideration is to keep it visually suitable while doing the tapers.

Jim is there a reason you suggested only doing 1 dimension for tapering? It just seems that it wouldn't take much tapering on both dimensions to really make the bending much easier and avoid the mess and work of steam bending ... plus it may add some visual interest to the front.

Brian
User avatar
Jim Dodd
Posts: 1359
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:08 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Installing Outwales

Post by Jim Dodd »

WMegl wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 7:38 am Jim: I have tapered the last 32 in. of the inside of the outwales and I think it did make it a little easier to bend, but it seems I need a lot of force to hold them to the shear line. I like your clamp jigs. I have conceptualized the same thing. Is that blue tape on the side that contacts the hull? How did you keep the jig from sliding forward?

Thanks.
Yes The Blue tape prevents the Dragon's Teeth from sticking to the hull !

Keeping the teeth from moving was done by clamping it to the gunnels before they reach the deck, with 2" Spring clamp, or C-clamp .
Last edited by Jim Dodd on Sun May 26, 2019 1:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!
User avatar
Jim Dodd
Posts: 1359
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:08 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Installing Outwales

Post by Jim Dodd »

Brian

The direction of the bend is the reason for just tapering the ends !
Thank for bringing this up !

If you just Thin the strip, you are making it more flexible, Horizontally.

Beings the outwhale needs to bend Vertically, Tapering it top and bottom will aid it's bending !

I should have clarified that !

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!
User avatar
WMegl
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:58 pm
Location: St. Louis, Missouri

Re: Installing Outwales

Post by WMegl »

Jim: I agree with the comment that as Canoecraft shows, the gunwales are a bit large. My sense of design is to have lighter lines and trim. So, my outwales are 3/4 in high (against the hull), 9/16 in. wide on top, and 1/2 in. on the outside.

As I have stated, I thinned the inside of the 3/4 in. dimension (starting at 32 in.) to taper the outwale towards the bow and stern.

You are suggesting that I also taper the 9/16 in. dimension to make it thinner in the vertical. I will try this.

Thanks to all for your comments.



https://photos.app.goo.gl/WytnVMQbgesdGRDy6
First Timer
User avatar
Jim Dodd
Posts: 1359
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:08 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Installing Outwales

Post by Jim Dodd »

If you are still having trouble making the Cherry conform to the shearline, Yes taper some more, or steam them!

Now that I'm back on the Soap box, I want to share another thought about the Dragon's Teeth.
With the amount of upward curve in the Outwhale. I would cut the long strips of the Teeth to mimic the curve in the shear. ( to match the Port, and Starboard sides). You won't have to bend the JAWS of the Dragon to match your hull, while clamping !
Make these strips at least few inches longer than your deck. Then space the teeth closer for more teeth, more clamping.

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!
User avatar
WMegl
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:58 pm
Location: St. Louis, Missouri

Re: Installing Outwales

Post by WMegl »

I was going to cut the long strip for the dragons teeth from a large piece of plywood or particle board and match the curve of the sheer line.

When I tapered the outwale in the horizontal, I went from 9/16 in. wide to 5/16 in. at the bow and stern.

Now, when I taper the vertical dimension, I will take 3/16. in off the top which will make the 3/4 side 9/16 in. and the outside face from 1/2 in. to 5/16 in.

I don't want to make it too thin.
First Timer
User avatar
WMegl
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:58 pm
Location: St. Louis, Missouri

Re: Installing Outwales

Post by WMegl »

It worked! Tapering in the vertical axis reduced the stiffness to the point where I belive I can epoxy and clamp without steaming. I tapered the top surface from 1/2 in. to 5/16 in. I also like the look.

Thanks to all for your suggestions.
First Timer
User avatar
Patricks Dad
Posts: 1476
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:11 pm
Location: Warrenville, Illinois

Re: Installing Outwales

Post by Patricks Dad »

My first build was a Redbird with Cherry Gunwales of the dimensions noted in Canoe Craft...Ends of the gunwales were steamed and bent over a form that is somewhat more tightly curved than the sheerline itself. They were installed with only epoxy (a coat of unthickened epoxy first, wiped off and then glued on with thickened epoxy.
Randy Pfeifer
(847) 341-0618
Randy.Pfeifer1@gmail.com
User avatar
WMegl
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:58 pm
Location: St. Louis, Missouri

Re: Installing Outwales

Post by WMegl »

My outwales are successfully installed. Again, thanks for the sugggestiions. The dragons teeth worked well.

As the 4th picture in the link below shows, the inwales and outwales do not creat a flat top surface. I would like you opinon on weather or not you would take a plane to the outwale to make the top surface of inwale, hull, and outwale flat. If planed, the outer surface of the outwale would become thinner than the current 5/16 in. dimension it is now. It's a purely aesthetic issue with me.

Thanks.

(Could someone tell me how to post actual pictures directly in a post rather than paste a link? Thanks.)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ayCdtqAbwkr73X3P8
First Timer
User avatar
Patricks Dad
Posts: 1476
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:11 pm
Location: Warrenville, Illinois

Re: Installing Outwales

Post by Patricks Dad »

To post an image, you still need to have the image somewhere (else) where you can use the URL to reference it. Once you have the link to the picture, just use the image button (9th icon from the right above the text box you type your message in... When you click that button it will insert a string that starts with "img" insert the link to the image there and your image will appear in the post....


Example:

Image
Randy Pfeifer
(847) 341-0618
Randy.Pfeifer1@gmail.com
User avatar
Patricks Dad
Posts: 1476
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:11 pm
Location: Warrenville, Illinois

Re: Installing Outwales

Post by Patricks Dad »

If you want to make the inwale and outwale align, you could take some off of the inwale, outwale or both. You could also just leave it as is. Place a straight edge across the full beam to see where most of the wear will fall when you slide the canoe onto a rack to guide you.

Again, leaving it alone is a fine choice as well.
Randy Pfeifer
(847) 341-0618
Randy.Pfeifer1@gmail.com
Post Reply