Shrinking the Redbird to 15' will this work out ok?
Shrinking the Redbird to 15' will this work out ok?
Hi, I built my strongback yesterday and am getting ready to cut my stations and have decided to make the redbird into a 15 footer, will doing this raise any serious design flaws. I left out the center station and moved the rest one inch closer. I was going to build the Hiawatha but my wife has NO canoe experience and I'm hoping the Redbird will be a little more stable. I love the lines on these two boats so I'm kinda stuck... Any advice would be greatly appreciated. (left the strongback long, until I'm sure size reduction will work) Thanks. By the way this is my first canoe.
An Irishman has an abiding sense of tragedy which sustains him through temporary periods of joy.
- Patricks Dad
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:11 pm
- Location: Warrenville, Illinois
I'm no expert but everything I've read from the experts says "don't go there". 17'6" down to 15" is a big change. According to some info on this website, the Redbird isn't dramatically more stable than the Hiawatha (92 vs 88). It's not obvious that making a Redbird at 15 feet would be more stable (ya got me. It might be less stable - again, I'm no expert).
That said, our Redbird has been shrunk to 17' (so it would fit in our garage) and we haven't seen any apparent problems. We left the spacing from Station 7 outward the same but shrank the stations between 7 and 7 by .5" each. The lines of the canoe still look great.
I'd suggest you build the canoe you want to have for the environment(s) you want to paddle in and then grow into it by getting the experience you (or your wife) needs to enjoy it (start in warm calm water ). It doesn't take long to get used to a new experience.
But then again, I'm no expert.
That said, our Redbird has been shrunk to 17' (so it would fit in our garage) and we haven't seen any apparent problems. We left the spacing from Station 7 outward the same but shrank the stations between 7 and 7 by .5" each. The lines of the canoe still look great.
I'd suggest you build the canoe you want to have for the environment(s) you want to paddle in and then grow into it by getting the experience you (or your wife) needs to enjoy it (start in warm calm water ). It doesn't take long to get used to a new experience.
But then again, I'm no expert.
I think you are asking for trouble, potentially big trouble. The amount of change you are talking about is extreme by anyone's standards. The Redbird's stability would be considered tender by most novice paddlers even at it's design dimensions, shortening it by 15% and decreasing the beam by whatever the amount is by removing the center form is beyond anyone's ability to predict the effect without either specific hull design software or past experience in actually doing just that to this hull. Are you willing to put a couple hundred hours into building only to find that the hull is so unstable that it is pretty firewood?
You stated your wife is a complete paddling novice, that alone is reason not to go off into uncharted building waters. If this doesn't work out, do you think she will tolerate spending more money on another attempt? As I stated, the Redbird is already considered tender by novices and your changes will only make it more so. Few 15' canoes are designed for tandem use, unless they are quite fat and with not very fine entry and exit angles. What is your reasoning behind decreasing the length by such a drastic amount?
You stated your wife is a complete paddling novice, that alone is reason not to go off into uncharted building waters. If this doesn't work out, do you think she will tolerate spending more money on another attempt? As I stated, the Redbird is already considered tender by novices and your changes will only make it more so. Few 15' canoes are designed for tandem use, unless they are quite fat and with not very fine entry and exit angles. What is your reasoning behind decreasing the length by such a drastic amount?
oops forgot part of reasoning
sorry about that... I have to be able to fit it in my garage.
An Irishman has an abiding sense of tragedy which sustains him through temporary periods of joy.
Look at another design
I would seriously consider looking at another design with the length and stability you need. Why not look at the Bob's Special or a Ranger. They both are wide with good stability in their beam.
I was hoping someone had already done the reduced size Redbird and could advise me. I guess from the negative feedback, trying it for my first canoe would be a mistake. I think I'll just go ahead and build the Hiawatha. It was my first choice anyway. The Redbird idea was because of the stabiity chart. Thanks for the quick response all. I'll be asking some more questions later, I'm sure.
An Irishman has an abiding sense of tragedy which sustains him through temporary periods of joy.
I have already tried it - don't recommend it
I did exactly what you propose by leaving out the center station and using all the rest. I didn't change the 12" spacing of the other forms and I believe I ended up at about 15' 6". I did this several years ago and still have and use the original 18 footer and the shortened one. In my opinion, the shortened version is absolutely worthless as a tandem. Losing the capacity in the center seems to make it very unstable. However, I use it as a solo and have no complaints. I think a canoe that was designed as a solo would probably be better but I have never paddled a true solo canoe. The stripping went well and the strips all laid fair on the forms except that there seemed to be a sharp transition right at the new center form near the sheer line. When the gunwales were installed this smoothed out nicely though. I think the width of the shortened version is about 31" which is pretty wide for a solo and pretty narrow for a tandem. I wouldn't do it again - but like I said, I use mine as a solo and am OK with it. Hope this helps.
I also sent you a private message before my registration got activated.
Rich Duvall
I also sent you a private message before my registration got activated.
Rich Duvall
There are people out there who have done what you are talking about with the Redbird. Unfortunately, their comments were lost when this forum was reconfigured. Be patient and keep bumping this message to the top for the next little while in the hope they may still be monitoring these forums.
I did see some that were shortened last summer and the paddlers seemed to like them. But I don't know how much they shortened them or by what method.
The Redbirds I have seen have very little freeboard. They are not all that stable. The high ends may also make tracking in wind more difficult. It doesn't look like a novice canoe to me.
The Bob's Special or the Ranger (shortened Prospector) might be more enjoyable for a novice and both are suitable for solo. And the original design length suits your storage limitations. I know what you mean about the look of the Redbird and Hiawatha. They have such classic lines and are beautiful looking canoes. But function comes first. Besides the storage issue you also want your paddling partner to be comfortable or she won't want to go paddling with you. If she feels like she can't relax in the canoe then it won't be as enjoyable.
Give your choice of canoe some more consideration before proceeding. Write down your priorities from most important to least important, type of paddling conditions, and select a design accordingly.
I did see some that were shortened last summer and the paddlers seemed to like them. But I don't know how much they shortened them or by what method.
The Redbirds I have seen have very little freeboard. They are not all that stable. The high ends may also make tracking in wind more difficult. It doesn't look like a novice canoe to me.
The Bob's Special or the Ranger (shortened Prospector) might be more enjoyable for a novice and both are suitable for solo. And the original design length suits your storage limitations. I know what you mean about the look of the Redbird and Hiawatha. They have such classic lines and are beautiful looking canoes. But function comes first. Besides the storage issue you also want your paddling partner to be comfortable or she won't want to go paddling with you. If she feels like she can't relax in the canoe then it won't be as enjoyable.
Give your choice of canoe some more consideration before proceeding. Write down your priorities from most important to least important, type of paddling conditions, and select a design accordingly.
Just adding on to the previous recs to go with the 15' Ranger or the Bob's... on the previous board, there were some comments made about the lack of stability in the Hiawatha, and at least one builder felt that it was not the best choice because of the lack of comfort.
The hull cross section also looks like it would not paddle heeled over solo well, and the description states that it was designed to be paddled level. So it might be easier paddling when going solo with the first two, since you'll be able to kneel in closer to the side for a more efficient stroke, if you're going to be paddling this way rather than sitting in the center.
The hull cross section also looks like it would not paddle heeled over solo well, and the description states that it was designed to be paddled level. So it might be easier paddling when going solo with the first two, since you'll be able to kneel in closer to the side for a more efficient stroke, if you're going to be paddling this way rather than sitting in the center.
- Dean in Eureka, CA
- Posts: 267
- Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 10:23 am
- Location: Eureka, CA
great info and opinions
Thanks for all the replies. I've been making sawdust the last couple of days. Just have to cut the cove in my strips.(whew...) The Prospector Ranger is looking pretty good.....maybe I could pull the top of the stem back a little to mimic the Redbird/Hiawatha look....Hmmm.....
An Irishman has an abiding sense of tragedy which sustains him through temporary periods of joy.
Thanks everyone!
Just a note to say thank you for preventing what would probably have been a floating disaster. I decided to go with the Prospector Ranger and will be posting on that board as time allows. I'll still post here for problems though. :frightened I make alot of wood stuff but never anything like this. Thanks again.
An Irishman has an abiding sense of tragedy which sustains him through temporary periods of joy.
- Glen Smith
- Posts: 3719
- Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 9:08 am
- Location: Baie-St-Paul, Quebec, Canada
I don't see why high, rounded stems couldn't be done on just about any design. It will take some refairing of the sheerline and possibly the forms nearest the stems. However, higher stems will add more area to act as a sail on windy days and this is why several boats have been redesigned with lower stems.
There could be problems in trying to change the stems when it comes to fairing the sheer in with the rest of the hull, or in other areas, such as the gunnels. Recurved stems are designed in to accomodate tumblehome, while stems closer to plumb are more typical with flared sections. Trying to add more recurve when there's not enough tumblehome to allow for this, or adding a recurved stem to a flared design, can be a poor decision if taken too far. Keep in mind that the canoe designer has faired the hull to blend in with the stem profile and modifications can throw this out of whack.
I don't think a small amount of height difference along the same stem lines will create problems, but changing a stem to look more like that of a Redbird could create difficulties. You'll most likely have to create more tumblehome at the stations nearby and whether this will, or won't, be as well faired in with the rest of the hull as done previously by computer design programs, is risky.
I don't think a small amount of height difference along the same stem lines will create problems, but changing a stem to look more like that of a Redbird could create difficulties. You'll most likely have to create more tumblehome at the stations nearby and whether this will, or won't, be as well faired in with the rest of the hull as done previously by computer design programs, is risky.