Stems or Stemless

[Jim D]

I don't want to stir up a nest of Hornets, but I see little advantage in building a canoe with inner and outer stems! In fact the extra time and trouble for a cosmetic difference puzzles me! An Outer stem could easily be added to stemless construction if one saw the need. With that said, I welcome your views! Jim

[Glen Smith]

Buzzzzz,

Hey Jim, on my last two boats (kayaks) I decided to go stemless but since these were my first attempts without innies I didn't quite like the look of the stem ends. Which means that I messed up a few miters :roll: so I added minimal outies (laminated ash) after planing down the ends a bit. Guess I'll have to build some more so I can practice the miter joints : .

[Juneaudave]

Canoecraft is so well written that pretty much anyone that can follow the instructions and pay attention to detail can end up with a nice canoe. For my money, building with stems per Canoecraft gives you some leeway in case you make an error. And I think that is especially true for the first time builder learning to use planes and spokeshaves and to cut miters etc. I am pretty sure that stemless designs, build by competent woodworkers, are structurally fine as well as aestetically pleasing.

[Dean in Eureka, CA]

Nice hornet Glen,
I'm in the midst of all that extra work right now Jim and I love it! Uh-Huh!
I got kids and I need "Bangability" and I need a good foundation for my rudder gudgeons.
Stemless would sure be less work, that's for sure. I'm a Norwegian and I've always had this tendancy to over build things. Did the Norwegians invent stems?

[Todd Bradshaw]

I doubt the Norwegians invented stems, but they certainly used them - only they have a rabbett cut in them, like a one-piece inner and outer stem assembly with the rolling bevel cut down it's middle, forming a groove to accept the planks. And those guys did much of their delicate work with an axe, which might take a bit of practice.

Most of the boats that I built were stemless and used the Hazen method. The end of the plywood stem form is beveled to a point. The strips for the first side are allowed to run off the form a bit and are later cut on their ends to match the bevel of the still exposed, other side of the form. The strips for that side are then added and lie against the beveled form and the now beveled ends of the first side's strips. It's fast to do but you have to watch carefully as it's fairly easy to wind-up with crooked or lumpy-looking stem shapes. Once glassed on both sides, they're very strong.

On the other hand, from looking at your project photos and the level of detail that you are working at, I think your boat needs the stems. I just get the feeling that if you omit them (especially in the interest of saving a few hours of work) you'll want to kick yourself later - not because they are needed structurally, but because of what they will do cosmetically.

[Erik, Belgium]

Here we go again.
I prefer the Al Gustavson way, and that is stemless. And solid piece of wood 'the sabot' adds bangability as well and is shaped in minutes.
On my second canoe now, I'm building with inner and outer stems. And to be honest, I hate it: I had a terrible time steaming and bending them, and I find they are difficult to shape during the stripping process, because I'm taking off material from bow and stern station as well. So no stems for me.
I have to admit though that stems look better.
This is the sabot.

[Jim D]

Thanks Guys! It's easy to install an outer stem on stemless construction if you feel the need for" Bangablility", but three layers of bias cut 6oz cloth strips worked fine for me! I'm on a limited time frame as far as building time , I build in a unheated garage. Anything I can do to save time and effort is appealing! Again. THANKS HORNETS!!

[Dean in Eureka, CA]

That is an intersting bit of info about the Vikings and their axes. My boy and I once entered a tomohawk throwing contest and to my toatal amazement, we won. Maybe it had something to do with our heritage. Naa, just pure beginers luck. I hit the bullseye all six times and my kid who was nine at the time, hit it five out of six times.

[canoeblderinmt]

I built my first canoe ( an 18 1/2' White Guide) from Gil Gilpatrick's book. It's stemless, but uses two wraps of fiberglass around the bow and stern before the main cloth is put on. On it's maiden voyage down the Gallatin river at flood stage, my novice bow person panicked at a tight turn. We hit the rocks head-on at probably 8 knots. It was strong enough to throw me out of the stern seat. Though we up-ended, there was NO DAMAGE to the bow! I couldn't believe it, but I believe in the stemless method. That boat, BTW weighed only about 55 lbs. Lots of weight saved by no stems.

[Jim D]

Good point!.. weight reduction, is always relevent,especially if it makes a stronger canoe! I believe the stemless method to be just such!

[philz]

I never saw the need for steam-bending stems. I followed MacCarthy's directions in "Featherweight Boatbuilding" which calls for 6 - 8 1/8" x 3/4" strips lamenated onto the canoe and then shaped to fit smoothly. It looks nice because the gunwale color followes right down the stem. Very easy - not much can go wrong and the fit is perfect, because you laminate right on the canoe.