Still at it and hit yet another bump!

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Riverrat
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Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: South Alabama

Still at it and hit yet another bump!

Post by Riverrat »

Hi folks. Still working on the Nomad. You won't believe all that has happened since I started. A senseless act of vandalism destroyed the canoe with less than 10 strips to go to finish closing the hull. Had to start all over with scrap strips, poorly beaded and coved and all short pieces. These were the strips I had relagated to the scrap or "paddle pile". Glad I didn't throw them away, however they made a poor substitute for the good strips I lost in the damage. ( 2 kids broke into the shop and destroyed a lot of stuff, including my almost finished canoe.) Anyway....a problem.
I finished stripping (again) and elected to put a sealer coat of epoxy resin on before glassing. Tried to put it on thin and tipped it off with a brush to try and control runs. I did a poor job. Next morning I got up and took a look at the dried result and it has blotches all over it. Looks like some of the wood drank too much epoxy and still wants more and some of the wood had too much and in those places it came out looking like glass. Now, would it be better to sand and try to get it all looking uniform, or should I try and go over it again with epoxy resin to get it all smooth and glassy and then sand? I think Mr. Michne might have been right when he said to forgo the sealer coat. Anyhow, I was determind to build this canoe and I'm not quitting now. I think I shall name it "Resolve". If I ever attempt another, I'll call it "Redeemed"!
patrick
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Post by patrick »

did you catch the kids and eat them?
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mtpocket
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Post by mtpocket »

Riverrat,

First of all, sorry about the senseless act of mutilation caused by the kids. It is hard for me to imagine how anyone could get a thrill out of ruining someones pride and joy. I hope you have better luck with the rebuild.

I did do a precoat on my redbird. I had pretty good success in getting a uniform texture and penetration. I am not going to debate whether or not it's a good idea since this was my first boat. What I will say is that if you had not done the precoat, the areas you mention that sucked it up like a sponge might have caused the glass to be starved. I don't know this for sure but it sounds logical. If it absorbed so much and left the surface rough and dry, it may have pulled the epoxy out of the glass. This too could have been dealt with by proper use of a squeegee but finding the problem areas before the epoxy kicks can be difficult. I don't think you did anything wrong, you just had wood that was thirsty in some areas and not in others. I will leave it up to the masters to guide you from here. I am anxious to read their replies so I can learn from it also.
Riverrat
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Location: South Alabama

Post by Riverrat »

Well Patrick, eating them wasn't exactly what I had in mind, although the process of roasting them on a spit was a pleasant thought. Actually, I might have misled. The kids were my nephews, 8 and 10. I had to go away on business and forgot to lock the shop before I left. My own stupidity. While I was gone, they (and thier Mom) came to visit. I discovered the damage after I returned and after they had gone back up North. I'm just dealing with it.
Professionals built the Titanic; amatuers built the Ark!
Riverrat
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Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: South Alabama

Post by Riverrat »

Sounds logical to me Mtpocket..hadn't thought of it that way.
Professionals built the Titanic; amatuers built the Ark!
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mtpocket
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Post by mtpocket »

Logic is all I have to go on. I wish I could speak from experience but I can't. Glassing is not my strong suit. After glassing one boat I don't feel any better equipt to deal with problems that rear their ugly head than I did before I started. I get lots of great information from other builders but I have trouble applying it at the right time. Many times the products mentioned are different from mine or the working conditions are different. Remembering what works in one situation and not in another is a tough thing to do. With the wealth of knowledge out there, the experience with products and techniques and the books available, one would wonder how anyone could make a mistake. Still, I made plenty.
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Juneaudave
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Post by Juneaudave »

IMHO...I would give the entire hull a light sanding with 120 to assure the glassy areas have enough tooth to bond and then go ahead and glass. I don't think I would oversand or apply another coat of epoxy prior to glassing.
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Bud
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Post by Bud »

Riverrat, I agree with Dave. Sand only as much as you need to smooth the rough spots and ensure a good bond elsewhere. If it has been too long for a chemical bond then you are going to have to sand it anyway. I like precoating, but I wet out right after it stops being tacky so I don't have to sand in between. I apply the precoat with a roller and have never had problems with runs. I have found that rollers give a thinner more even coat than I can get with a brush. Don't sweat it. Everything will be OK.

Really sorry to hear about the damage. I hope you have a talk with their mom about it. I feel that kids need to learn from a young age about respect for others and their property and to be accountable for their actions. Sorry, this is one of my rants about what is wrong with much of the younger generation.
Bud
"Canoes don't tip. People just fall out of them!" Omer Stringer
Riverrat
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Location: South Alabama

Post by Riverrat »

Bud..thanks for the repy and the encouragement! I'm inclined to go ahead and sand..have to anyway, its past the point of a chemical bond. Just hope those "dry, splotchy" areas don't show up under the glass for some reason. Wonder if humidity might have been a player. It's been raining here forever, was raining when I precoated, but it's in a shop with AC and the temp was stable at 70 degrees.

Like you, I'm from the south and we think alike along the discipline lines. We're gonna have a loooong prayer meeting about taking responsibility and owning up to your actions. Hope it doesn't turn into a wall to wall conference!
Professionals built the Titanic; amatuers built the Ark!
Riverrat
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Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: South Alabama

Post by Riverrat »

OK..got her sanded and it all looks milky white now....guess thats the "tooth" I need for glassing. I'll begin (gulp!!!) glassing Saturday or Sunday morning. I do have two or three strips that as scrap, were not as thick as the one above or below it. How much of a problem is this gonna cause for the glass cloth? I'm not sure I'll be able to get it to lay flat in those areas.
Professionals built the Titanic; amatuers built the Ark!
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Patricks Dad
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Post by Patricks Dad »

I would think you would want to sand the "fat" strips to match the skinny strips. Otherwise, as you suggest, the glass will float over the joint. Sanding the hull after the glassing might present a higher risk of sanding through to the glass resulting in a more visible problem.

But then again sanding through the initial coat of epoxy might make a larger area visible. As you can see, I'm no expert. Maybe if you paid extra attention to getting the glass fabric to follow the joints you can keep it in place and avoid the sanding. It might require lots of (repeated) attention as the epoxy sets up. Dilligence might pay off. Follow this with really careful sanding in those areas after the epoxy is cured. You might be able to avoid any glass contact there too.

How far off are the strips from matching one another?
Randy Pfeifer
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Riverrat
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Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: South Alabama

Post by Riverrat »

PD, I think you're right. I'll try and sand the fat ones a bit more and get the depression as minimal as possible. In the 3 places I'm concerned about, the difference is from about 1/16th to 1/8th. Wouldn't be too concerned except tht as mentioned before, these are strips that weren't cut or B/C'vd very well. Not too sure about the thickness I have to work with. I'll persevere.
Since I had to start over, this has been an excercise in frustration and more repair than building. I've certainly been "to school" on this one. At this juncture, I'm hoping this one turns out good enough to use as just a plain old hunting canoe to use at the river camp. Hopefully the skills I've picked up, the improvisions I've had to figure out and the lessons learned from working with poor material will make the next one seem like a breeze....if there ever is a "next one". Thanks for the response and suggestion.
Jim
Professionals built the Titanic; amatuers built the Ark!
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ealger
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Blotchy surface

Post by ealger »

Blotchy finishes, on raw wood, whether varnish, oil, epoxy, etc., can be caused by sanding with too fine a grit. Sanding with too fine a grit can cause the wood to become burnished. I learned this the hard way because I figured that smoother was better.
:confused

Ted says sand with 80 grit, wet to raise the grain, then sand with 120 grit enough to remove the scratches from the 80 grit (but no more IMHO). Perhaps this wasn't the problem you encountered but good to note for "next time".
Ed..
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KARKAUAI
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Post by KARKAUAI »

Riverrat, could you glue in some 1/8" planks to the depressions, then sand down smooth with the rest ofthe hull? That'd probably be the solution with the least chance of causing other problems, and if grain-matched, would blend in very well with the rest of the hull.
A hui ho,
Kent
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Erik, Belgium
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Post by Erik, Belgium »

Eaiger,
You 're exactly right about that.
Just wanted to add that ROS-sanding with too high rotation speeds can cause white and blotchy areas as well.
I roughly sand with my ROS, and then finish the sanding with a sanding board (that 's a piece of plywood with 80 grid sanding paper glued to it, and 2 handgrips on top). That takes about 2 - 3 hours yes, but the straightness of the hull you 'll get this way is not obtainable with a ROS (IMO)

Erik, Belgium.
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