Northwest Cruiser

revtbru · Post by **revtbru** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:10 pm

Hello all. This is my first ever post here. When found this site a few weeks ago I was very encouraged and impressed with the caliber of resource this site provides.
I'm just getting into canoe building and am getting a start on a 17' Northwest Cruiser , a plan from Northwest Canoe. From my perspective (a limited one, at that), it was a model that could best meet my current paddling needs. After reading CanoeCraft and John Michne's pages and a bunch of other stuff (including much of this site), I decided to modify the base of all the molds to fit the Canoecraft strongback. This seemed to work just fine. I alsi decided to go with stems vs any other option.
I currently have all the molds mounted, plummed and taped and am working on the stems. I also have all my red cedar strips ripped to size and am about to run them through the router table for bead and cove.
I have 2 questions. First, is there anyone out there that has built this model? When I chose it I hadn't realized that it's a pretty recent design. This makes me just a little nervous. I would sure like to see if there are specific things to look out for as I build from someone who has been there before.
Second, when bending my clear pine inside stems, one of the outer strips splintered ever-so-slightly at the hard curve. Can I get by with this or am I asking for trouble?
Thanks for any help,
Tim Brudnicki

Snowman · Post by **Snowman** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:56 pm

Tim,

Welcome to the fold! I have to agree that this forum is super. There are lots of folks out there with heaps of experience - and they are willing to help out when required.

I have never built the 17' Northwest Cruiser, and I have not even read much about it. Sorry, I can't help you there.

WRT your inner stem question, without seeing it, unless it is really bad, I probably would go ahead and use it, even through it is splintered. Also, most of it will get cut away anyways when you do the stem shaping. If it is just the outer strip, you will never see the tear/splintering once the strips are on and the other stem is fit in place. It will not be seen, nor should it cause any structural concern. Depending on how much of the tear is left once the stem is shaped and you go to fit the outer stem, you might want to make sure that you expose the tear area to extra unthickened epoxy (in the tear area) until it soaks in no more, and then a bit of extra thickened epoxy to fill any "gaps" created by the tear.

You have probably heard this before, but to help prevent the tearing on the outermost stirp, if you use either an additional strip or a bending band on the outer fibres, you can help avoid these types of tearing.

If you are taking photos of you progress, keep us updated with some images. Happy building!

Snowman

revtbru · Post by **revtbru** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:38 pm

Thanks Snowman (interesting name for a fellow from CA) I appreciate the tips!

Tim Eastman · Post by **Tim Eastman** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:49 am

Hi Tim,

I'm "WoodBender" from CCBB. I've seriously contemplated doing exactly what you are doing with my NW Cruiser when it's built. I would take Ted Moore's stem fabrications and attachments as gospel. Meaning I would shave the inner stem to that 1/8" that he describes in Canoecraft. And shave it exaclty how he describes with laying the strips against it up and around the hull forms. Then do exactly as Ted describes in attaching the outer stem.

I've heard of some builders pinning (or nailing) the outer stembands to the outer stem. Al from NW Canoes about had an anyurism when we were talking about that on the phone. "Go through all that trouble to create the inner and outer stems and fair them and then punch holes in them for the stem bands and let moisture in!" (as he puts it)

Al's been building canoes for many years. That's one of the reasons I bought both the 38 Special and the NW Cruiser plans. The Cruiser may be a "recent design" but I trust where it came from. The hull seems quite fair for the tripping that I have in mind.

Any way I'd like to see your approach and how you finish things out. Again if you follow Ted's pattern and attachment sequence for inner and outer stems I think you'll be dead on. If I remember right you've already taken into account the 3/4" off the bow and stern forms on Al's plans. So you are already committed!

This is a great place to hang out Tim - I'm glad you showed up.

Glen Smith · Post by **Glen Smith** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:59 am

I've heard of some builders pinning (or nailing) the outer stembands to the outer stem. Al from NW Canoes about had an anyurism when we were talking about that on the phone. "Go through all that trouble to create the inner and outer stems and fair them and then punch holes in them for the stem bands and let moisture in!" (as he puts it)

Alright Tim, so how does Al recommend attaching brass stem bands? Or does he believe they are not necessary? Curious minds want to know. :rolling eyes

Tim Eastman · Post by **Tim Eastman** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:33 pm

Yeah - I thought someone would hit that. :smile

Two things actually. (remember though, I'm a proponent of how you and Ted do things)
1. Al doesn't use inner or outer stems at all (or rarely). He interleaves the strips at the bow and stern much like steepling your fingers in a dovetail fashion. In place of the inner stem there is a fillet of schmutz (wood flour thickened epoxy) right up tight in the bow and stern. Also Al uses a "sabot" or shoe of wood at the bow and stern as a "rock knocker".

2. To protect the bow and stern Al recommends a layup of 3 strips of bias cut 6oz cloth right where most of the impact and damage is likely to happen and then to wrap the fabric ends from the rest of the hull around the bow and stern. In effect we just created five layers of fiberglass in this area as well as the sabot to protect the bow and stern from impact.

But your question is valid Glen. I don't think Al uses stembands. Sooner or later that glass and epoxy will have to be dealt with or repaired I would think. Then again I know of a photographer who heavily travels the BWCA in a stripper without outer stems or stembands and he's been using that same canoe for years.

I have to ask a question from Al's perspective though. If we screw in a stemband as Ted shows us in Canoecraft (both editions) - how does one keep the water out of that outer stem which we just punched holes in? Brass and wood have different coefficients of expansion and sooner of later due to movement a hole will open up.

??

I will be posting photos of my 38 Special periodically, we are planning on the sabots. For now the strongback and the forms are placed on my website under "projects". Feel free to look and comment. The e-mail goes to my home so please be discreet.

Alright Tim, so how does Al recommend attaching brass stem bands? Or does he believe they are not necessary? Curious minds want to know. :rolling eyes

AlanWS · Post by **AlanWS** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:47 pm

Al Gustafson knows what he is talking about. I built a 17' canoe based on MCA plans several decades ago, and an 18' BWCA cruiser more recently; I think the one you refer to is supposed to be an improvement on that. If so, it should be fantastic. The Minnesota designers and builders tend to focus more on performance and less on traditional appearance than the Maine (and other eastern) builders. At least, it seems that way to me. When I say "performance", I'm thinking of extended wilderness trips on lakes and rivers, not short races.

I'm in Milwaukee too, put up this website while making my last canoe, and am planning on another this summer. It will be another BWCA cruiser.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~durgerian/

Glen Smith · Post by **Glen Smith** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:25 pm

Tim, I didn't know that Al's method doesn't make use of stems. I have built a few kayaks this way and actually I just added minimal outer stems to clean up the look at the bow and stern. I know several people use stemless construction and instead rely on epoxy and glass for the reinforcement and there's nothing wrong with that.

When installing brass stem bands, the screw holes are pre-drilled through the brass and in the wood. A caulking compound is used to keep the holes dry. Some builders choose to install the stem bands with thickened epoxy and don't use screws. There are many ways to do the job and none of them are "the wrong way".

Tim Eastman · Post by **Tim Eastman** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:46 pm

Geez, I hope I didn't come across as a crank. Not intended I assure you.

Additional question Glen on epoxying the stembands. Is there enough "grip" between the brass and epoxy to keep it from popping off from an impact?

I think I would like to use a stemband but don't really want to puncture the integrity of the hull. Also you mentioned caulking compound if using the screws. Is that the 3M 5200 stuff (or something similar)? I had a boat building class through WoodenBoat and we went through a case of that stuff for our Dory/Skiff.

Glen Smith wrote:Tim, I didn't know that Al's method doesn't make use of stems. I have built a few kayaks this way and actually I just added minimal outer stems to clean up the look at the bow and stern. I know several people use stemless construction and instead rely on epoxy and glass for the reinforcement and there's nothing wrong with that.

When installing brass stem bands, the screw holes are pre-drilled through the brass and in the wood. A caulking compound is used to keep the holes dry. Some builders choose to install the stem bands with thickened epoxy and don't use screws. There are many ways to do the job and none of them are "the wrong way".

Tim Eastman · Post by **Tim Eastman** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:53 pm

Alan I've got your homepage as a "favorite" on my machine at home. I thought the jig for cutting strips was seriously cool. I don't remember - did you use 1/4" strips? I see too you used a very small ash outer stem. Did you simply epoxy that on like Ted did in CanoeCraft?

pawistik · Post by **pawistik** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:18 pm

Tim Eastman wrote:I think I would like to use a stemband but don't really want to puncture the integrity of the hull.

Head over to the Kayak Building Bulletin Board hosted by Guillemot Kayaks and do some searches of the postings there. Robert Pruden has some experience with this I believe and he would have posted the information there.

Glen Smith · Post by **Glen Smith** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:43 pm

Tim, I didn't think of you as a crank. There was nothing negative in your message. I am all for trying new things.

I haven't installed any stembands with just epoxy but someone here did. I'm not sure who it was. I'll have to search for it because I think he decided to use some kind of fasteners after using the boat. According to West Systems, metal should be roughed up with 80 grit paper for epoxy bonding or etched with some kind of acid. They have info on their site somewhere.

I can't remember if I used 5200, a similar product or just silicone. I think it was just marine silicone and I haven't had any problems with the stem bands but that boat hasn't seen much use either.

Glen Smith · Post by **Glen Smith** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:51 pm

I found it. It was Juneaudave, here is part of the thread: http://www.bearmountainboats.com/phpbb2 ... ght=#10657

revtbru · Post by **revtbru** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:26 pm

Thanks everyone for the help. It was cool to find another builder in my area too(Alan). Alan, I actually live over in Tosa. If you have any ambition to teach a poor, petrified soul about fiberglass/epoxy in a couple months, I would welcome the help. I'd buy you a tasty Riverwest Stein or two in return. By the way, you built a sweet lookin canoe, and I like the site you set up.
Tim
PS Good to hear that your getting ready to strip your 38, woodbender!

Jim Dodd · Post by **Jim Dodd** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:00 pm

Hi All
I'll climb on board with the stemless gang!
This is as strong a method as there is, and easier to build to boot!
If one wants a traditional look, an outer stem can be laminated on, without screws!
A brass stem band is cool to look at, but with too many short comings!
I don't mean to step on toes! This is just how I see it!
Jim

The Bear Mountain Boat Shop