How low can I go?

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Tim Eastman
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Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:40 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan, U.S.A.

How low can I go?

Post by Tim Eastman »

I have an unheated garage for a "workshop" (translation; the cars have been temporarily evicted).

A couple problems have joined company to present an impass. Problem 'A' seems to be lack of funds for fiberglassing and epoxy, final trimwork, gunnels etc. Problem 'B' is the weather window in West Michigan (lower penninsula). It's getting colder.

IFF I have funds break lose I may be able to fiberglass and epoxy this thing. But the weather window may not allow me the grace of temperatures warm enough to do a decent epoxy job.

Question 1; How low can I go as far as temperatures with System 3 Silver Tip Laminating Resin? Their documentation says pretty low but I want to hear from someone who's actually used it.

Question 2; I may have to suspend operations - literally. I may have to remove the legs off my strongback and hoist the strongback with the canoe suspended from the garage trusses in order to bring the cars and peace back into shelter. I'm thinking of having the strongback rest on three points (horizontal 2x6's perpendicular to the strongback) where it would normally have rested on it's legs. The strongback would be blocked and screwed to the supporting 2x6's.

Anybody see a problem with Question #2?

Also just as an observation. At the outset of the project I used floor urethane to varnish the forms rather than taping them. I have pulled the staples to begin fairing and I have noticed that the hull (strip glue) is not gripping the forms at all. In fact the hull is simply being held in place by gravity it seems. I would not try to lift the tumblehome over the bulge of the forms but you know what I mean. It's loose.

Question 3; If the canoe is hoisted up and stored in this state so attached (or mounted) on the forms does anyone see a horrible turn of events come Spring when I come to fiberglass it??

I'm thinking (hoping) that if the hull is still on the forms that it will not go too far out of hull shape/fairness.

What do you think guys?
Tim Eastman
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Fred G
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Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:27 pm
Location: Haslett, MI

Post by Fred G »

I don't see a problem with winter storage if your strongback is stable - meaning plywood or steel. You may have a problem if your strongback is 2X material.

No info on your specific epoxy, but you may be able to make a plastic tent over the canoe and use a space heater or lightbulbs to get you into the middle of November anyway. You may want to heat your epoxy to 70 or 75 and keep it in a bucket of warm water while applying in the cold.

If you get the outside glassed, don't pull it off the froms until you are able to glass the inside too.

Fred in Haslett, MI
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Bassbug
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Post by Bassbug »

I think it would be OK to store it as you described - just don't remove it from the forms unless you get both sides glassed.

I glassed the outside of my Redbird in August, then removed it from the forms then did not work on it for 6 weeks. When I began fairing the inside, the wood (redwood) cracked within a strip. I believe that that in the 6 weeks, the inside dried too much and caused the crack. I put as much epoxy in the crack as possible then worked quickly to glass it. No additional problems.

Last year I built a One Ocean Storm LT kayak and had the hull and deck glassed on the outside by September. Due to sever back problems (ruptured disc) I had to store it over the winter and did not work on it untl April. I left both hull and deck on the forms and even put additional staples along the sheerline. My storage area was an unheated carport, well covered from the elements. The storage worked very well and I did not encounter any problems when I continued to work on it. I finished it in June this year. The image at the end of my message shows how it was stored..


I'm working on a Ranger now and just glassed the outside. We put coats 2 & 3 on last weekend with temps in the upper 60s in the day and low 50s at night. I'm using West 105/207 and we plan to work the inside next week then glass this fall.

Hope this helps.

Dale
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Pete in the Deep South
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Post by Pete in the Deep South »

Tim: I'm impressed with your skill at such an early age. I was in my 30's before gettilng into woodworking. Canoe building much later I might add.

If the strongback cann't rack(get out of square) I would think storage as you describe would be OK.

If you plan to continue working into the cold weather, be careful of the heating system you use. The worst experience I ever had building canoes occured when I used a kerosene heater in my shop. I was using a System Three product, and their tech personel said that "using a kerosene heater in the shop was a definite NO NO". Not sure this caused the problem(epoxy delamilnated from hull), but why take a chance. I would think any vented heater or elect. would be just fine.
KG4YOL
Tim Eastman
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Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:40 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan, U.S.A.

Post by Tim Eastman »

Pete - from what I've heard kerosene heaters are a big no-no because the fumes leave a residue which of course is oily and tends to weird out varnish as well. Fish eyes came up in the one report I heard.

By the way - I'm 47! My son Chris is the young guy who's working with me on the webpage :eyebrows
Pete in the Deep South wrote:Tim: I'm impressed with your skill at such an early age. I was in my 30's before gettilng into woodworking. Canoe building much later I might add.

If the strongback cann't rack(get out of square) I would think storage as you describe would be OK.

If you plan to continue working into the cold weather, be careful of the heating system you use. The worst experience I ever had building canoes occured when I used a kerosene heater in my shop. I was using a System Three product, and their tech personel said that "using a kerosene heater in the shop was a definite NO NO". Not sure this caused the problem(epoxy delamilnated from hull), but why take a chance. I would think any vented heater or elect. would be just fine.
:eyebrows
Tim Eastman
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Ray_B
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Post by Ray_B »

Hi, Since you folks are mentioning shop heating here please let me ask this question I’ve been wondering about.
I’ll be building my Traveler in the cellar and my heat source is an old sheet metal woodstove. It’s about as far from airtight as you can get and one end of my shop is always noticeably warmer than the other……so the stern of my canoe will be somewhat warmer than the bow. I’d guess by as much as 5-8 degrees. Will I run into any problems while glassing or finishing with this situation??
Thanks,
Ray
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Glen Smith
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Location: Baie-St-Paul, Quebec, Canada

Post by Glen Smith »

Ray, would it be possible for you to set up a small fan? Even set on low speed it will help circulate the air and equalize the temperature. If that isn't possible I would start glassing at the bow and work towards the stern. This way you will have gained a bit of experience and working speed by the time you reach the warmer end. Do not apply another coat until the first one is past the tacky stage at the cold end.
Ray_B
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Post by Ray_B »

Glen, Yes as a matter of fact I'd forgotten about it. It's a 12" fan that use to oscillate but that function is long gone.
I suspect that the fan would not be a good idea while putting on the varnish.....right??
Probable create a big dust problem.
Thanks,
Ray
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Glen Smith
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Post by Glen Smith »

You wouldn't want the fan to be blowing directly onto the boat but more off to one corner of the shop just to get the warmer air circulating. Of course dust in the varnish is not desirable so I wouldn't bother with the fan during that phase. The temperature difference probably wouldn't have as much impact on the varnish as it would on the epoxy.
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Woodchuck
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Post by Woodchuck »

Tim Eastman wrote:Pete - from what I've heard, kerosene heaters are a big no-no because the fumes leave a residue which of course is oily and tends to weird out varnish as well. Fish eyes came up in the one report I heard.
This kerosene heater statement could completely change my plans this winter... I have a 55,000 btu "torpedo" heater with a fan and thermostat that runs on kerosene and does a fine job of heating my insulated garage. IS THIS TRUE that they are a NO NO??? This is the first I've herard about this and it could be a major problem...PLEASE VERIFY...
:crying :thinking :confused :twisted evil
Joe "Woodchuck" Gledhill
Garden City, MI
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Pete in the Deep South
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Post by Pete in the Deep South »

To Tim: Sorry about the name mix-up. I could have improved on my spelling also. I thought I edited a few of those typos out, but somehow they still showed up! :thinking

To WoodChuck: After thinking back, I may have used an oil based stain on the canoe that I had problems with. Still it may be a good idea to contact the technical representative for the product that you are using. I never did find a warning in the System Three product info about kerosene heaters. It's been quite awhile since then.....so I don't have a clue about present recommendations.
KG4YOL
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Glen Smith
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Post by Glen Smith »

I have been seeing the "kerosene warning" on the internet for a few years but I have never found any mention of it on epoxy manufacturer websites. I imagine that any type of "fossil fuel" heater that doesn't have an exhaust chimney could put some soot or other product in the air and it could settle on the boat causing adhesion problems be it with epoxy or varnish. Apparently they also put out water vapor and Carbon Monoxide.

I would either try it with a test panel while the heater is in operation or I would find an alternate source of heating just to be safe.

Edit: A google search has been turning up a bit of info and I will post links here as I find them.

http://www.clcboats.com/shoptips/shopti ... epoxy.php/
http://www.alejandra.net/velocity/workshop.htm
Direct fired kerosene and propane to a much lessor exent give off as products
of combustion water, carbon dioxide and unburned hydrocarbons which in
combination can react with curing epoxy to form an unbondable surface.

Better to find another source of heat.

W. Kern Hendricks
System Three Resins, Inc.
P.O. Box 70436
Seattle, WA 98107
Orders Only: 800/333-5514
Technical Support: 206/782-7976
e-mail: support@systemthree.com
web: www.systemthree.com
This is from the Shearwater website:
Do not use a space heater which exhausts into the room such as most kerosene heaters because they produce water vapor which can effect the epoxy. Read the epoxy manufacturer's recommendations.
To sum it up, if you decide to use a kerosene space heater take all safety precautions necessary, check with your local fire department for recommendations.
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John Michne
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Post by John Michne »

I've used a 35,000 BTU salamander-style kerosene heater for years with no problems attributable to using it. My shop is normally heated by the house furnace, but because the shop is the in-house garage, it can get quite cool if the outside temperature is in the teens (F). I run the heater for about 20 minutes with a window cracked open, heat up the shop, and go to work. I do get a very slight puff of kerosene fumes when it is initially fired up, but it rapidly dissipates.

Running a salamander heater in an enclosed space can lead to temporary health effects, like dizziness and a bad taste in your mouth. If this happens, shut it down and ventilate the space. Get to some air to relieve the symptoms. DO NOT continue to work if this happens. Always have adequate ventilation when operating the heater.

John
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