Alternatives to painter holes?

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Kerry
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Alternatives to painter holes?

Post by Kerry » Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:43 am

I'm not sure I want to put painter holes in my hull, but I'll obviously need some way to tie down the front and rear of the canoe when transporting, so I'm wondering what the alternatives are? Are the decks strong enough that a deck cleat or ring fastened through the deck can be used for tie down purposes? I envision something like a 1/4" brass threaded rod going through the deck with a large brass washer on the inside.

Cheers,
Kerry

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Glen Smith
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Post by Glen Smith » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:35 pm

I don't have painter holes on my canoes. I use the inwale scuppers as tie-down points.

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Kerry
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Post by Kerry » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:47 pm

Thanks Glen,

How far back did you start the scuppers? Mine begin about 30" back from the stem.

Kerry

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ealger
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Alternative to painter holes

Post by ealger » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:52 pm

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Ed....
Ed Alger

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Glen Smith
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Post by Glen Smith » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:57 pm

My first scupper is about 20" from the stem tip.

Ed's eye bolt through the stems is a good way to go.

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Kerry
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Post by Kerry » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:28 pm

Thanks Ed, I think I'm going to do the same. Is that brass?

Kerry

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ealger
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Alternative to painter holes

Post by ealger » Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:39 pm

Yes, the one's on my Ranger 15 are brass.
See www.noahsboatbuilding.com/noahsusa/
and search for "eye bolt". You'll find the brass 1/4" x 2" version. ( I couldn't insert the URL here for some reason).

However, the one's I have waiting for my Prospector 16' are Stainless.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/us ... less+Steel

The price on both the brass and SS are gone up a lot in the past year. I like the SS version because the eye ID is larger than the brass version. Both have 1/4" shanks and are shoulder eyebolts.

If you install an eyebolt, drill the holes carefully to align directly to the inner stem. Mix some epoxy and thoroughly swab the inside of the hole to waterproof it. Sand the eyebolt shaft to rough it up.

As I install my outer stems, I plan out the screw holes so that one will be down about 2" from the shear. I use #6 x 1-1/4" pan head face frame screws to pull down the outerstem until the epoxy sets. Then after removing the screws, I plug with cherry plugs. I then bore out the selected screw (not plugged) hole for the eyebolt which has already been aligned squarely on the inner stem.

Ed...
Ed Alger

David James
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Post by David James » Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:44 pm

Kerry, I also use the inwale scuppers for tie down. I just couldn't put a drill bit to my mahogany decks. My first scuppers are 21" back.

Dave
"If given six hours to chop down a tree, spend the first four sharpening your ax." - Abraham Lincoln

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pawistik
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Post by pawistik » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:28 am

One alternative would be to do it as I did on my kayak, which is similar to how I have seen other kayak builders do it. First, I drilled a 7/8" hole at the desired location at bow and stern. I then cut a short length of 7/8" dowel so that it was just a little longer than necessary to fill the hole horizontally in the bow/stern tip. I then drilled out the dowel to create a 3/8" hole. The best way to do this would be using a drill press but since that's a tool I lack, I did it freehand with the dowel in a vice, drilling in from each end. I then inserted and epoxied into place the dowel, then trimmed off the excess flush with the hull. I rounded the inside edges a bit and gave the interior hole a coat of epoxy. In my case, I used 7/8" non-specific soft wood because I happened to have it, but a variety of wood species and dowel sizes can be purchased. My dowel holes created a bit of contrast with the cedar that works with the lighter accents on the rest of the kayak, but you could also choose woods that blend. On a canoe, since you have easy access to the interior you could epoxy into place a small block of wood behind the stems then drill through that. If you have any intentions of lining your canoe the holes are best placed closer to the waterline, not on the decks.
Cheers,
Bryan

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Kerry
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Post by Kerry » Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:44 pm

pawistik wrote:On a canoe, since you have easy access to the interior you could epoxy into place a small block of wood behind the stems then drill through that. If you have any intentions of lining your canoe the holes are best placed closer to the waterline, not on the decks.
Umm, well :embarassed err, that's mostly the reason that I'm not sure I want to install painter holes just now. I sort of forgot about needing to tie the canoe to the van, and I have the decks and bulkeads installed. I do have pretty good access - an 8" deck plate opening, but I'm not sure I trust that I can cut a block of wood to get a good fit between the block and the hull on both sides. I figure with an eyebolt as Ed used there is only one small hole which is easy to seal. I suppose being above the waterline there isn't too too much concern about water getting in, but I really want to use the bulkead areas for dry storage.

What do you mean by 'lining your canoe'? Line with what? (Sorry, canoe newbie here.)

Cheers,
Kerry

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pawistik
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Post by pawistik » Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:14 pm

Kerry wrote:What do you mean by 'lining your canoe'? Line with what?
Hi Kerry,
"Lining" is a technique where ropes, usually fixed to both ends, are used to drag the canoe up or down stream from shore, usually to get through a rapids that's a bit too much to paddle through. Ideally for lining to work well the rope (line) should be affixed near the waterline. The greater the distance from the water to the rope, the greater the distance between the forces pushing in opposite directions (ie rope pulling upriver and current pushing downriver).

The theory with lining upriver is that the bow is allowed to be pushed into the current a bit by the water and the stern is kept a bit closer to shore, that way the current is pushing the canoe away from the rocks & shore while you work the canoe upriver. You manoeuvre the canoe by varying the relative length of each rope. Actually it's harder than it sounds. A quick search found this article on pnet. I haven't read the article but Kevin Callan is a canoe guru. Note that a bridle can be tied around the canoe should you ever find yourself in need to line your canoe.

If/when I ever build a canoe I think I would take the drilled hole and dowel approach. Not sure I'd put a very far below the deck though unless I was building a canoe I expected to be lining through rapids. The dowel ensures that the water-exclusive nature of the hull is maintained. I like the clean look of this approach rather than the eye bolt. Otherwise I'd do as Glen said and just tie down through the scuppers if I have them. One of these days I'm going to re-do the holes on my fiberglass canoe using a bit of pvc type through the hole to keep out the water. In this case it is a boat I trip with in whitewater so a painter hole close to the water line would help.

Cheers,
Bryan

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Kerry
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Post by Kerry » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:49 pm

pawistik wrote:
Kerry wrote:What do you mean by 'lining your canoe'? Line with what?
Hi Kerry,
"Lining" is a technique where ropes, usually fixed to both ends, are used to drag the canoe up or down stream from shore, usually to get through a rapids that's a bit too much to paddle through. Ideally for lining to work well the rope (line) should be affixed near the waterline. The greater the distance from the water to the rope, the greater the distance between the forces pushing in opposite directions (ie rope pulling upriver and current pushing downriver).
Ahh I see. I've never heard of that before. I was pretty sure you didn't mean putting carpet inside the canoe :laughing but I thought maybe an antiskid coating or something. Thanks for the education.

Now I'm starting to think a little more about the dowel technique you mentioned. Do you think if I was to turn a 1" dowel on my lathe, with a 1/4" lip at one end and then turn a matching separate ring/washer for the other side and put these through a 1" hole in the hull (up near the sheer - no lining for me!) that I could epoxy only from the outside of the hull and get it secure and watertight? Or do you think epoxying from the inside would still be required? Of course I would epoxy the inside of the hole drilled through the dowel. I'm asking because at lunch time I called the boat shop and they don't have any eyebolts big enough for this and I was hoping not to have to mail order.

Kerry

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pawistik
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Post by pawistik » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:39 pm

Kerry wrote:..... Do you think if I was to turn a 1" dowel on my lathe, with a 1/4" lip at one end and then turn a matching separate ring/washer for the other side and put these through a 1" hole in the hull (up near the sheer - no lining for me!) that I could epoxy only from the outside of the hull and get it secure and watertight? Or do you think epoxying from the inside would still be required? Of course I would epoxy the inside of the hole drilled through the dowel.
That's maybe not a bad idea. You could turn the piece out of whatever wood you wanted. I gather that the purpose of the lip would be to ensure a very tight fit at the edge of the hole. The question of sealing the wood well could be addressed by coating the dowel with epoxy, giving that a bit of time to soak in and partially cure, then coat with thickened epoxy and insert the dowel. The thickened epoxy should fill any gaps so you should end up with a waterproof fixture that needs no extra work from the inside (particularly since it's hidden behind the bulkhead). Trim the dowel flush with the hull and then give it a couple of coats of epoxy to coat the inner hole and edges. The tricky part may be getting a straight hole drilled in the hull. This could probably be achieved by creating a platform to prop up the drill while the hole is drilled. I think I was going to do that but ended up just eyeballing it.

For me, the dowel fit very snugly into the hole so it worked well with a minimum of gap filling necessary.

Cheers,
Bryan

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Glen Smith
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Post by Glen Smith » Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:51 pm

Kerry, you started out looking for alternatives to a painter hole but now it seems that you might be contemplating this solution.

In my kayaks I drill a hole through the inner stem and epoxy in a short piece of small diameter copper pipe. In this photo the pipe is 3/8" OD, 1/4" ID but you could go a bit bigger and still keep it within the thickness of the inner stems. I drill half-way through from each side with a small bit then switch to a 3/8" Forstner bit and repeat. The hole gets a few applications of unthickened epoxy to seal the wood and the pipe gets roughed up with 80 grit paper. Apply thickened epoxy to the pipe and insert, clean up excess and allow to set. Cut off excessive pipe, file smooth with hull then ream the hole to eliminate any rough edges. It is easy to do, works well and isn't too obvious.

Image

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Kerry
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Post by Kerry » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:57 pm

Glen Smith wrote:Kerry, you started out looking for alternatives to a painter hole but now it seems that you might be contemplating this solution.
Yup. As I said, the boatshop doesn't have a brass eye bolt that big, and I had a quick look in the local hardware stores and I can't see anything there either. I really don't want to mailorder because of the cost and because I'm hoping to get this boat in the water very soon. So, it's starting to look like a hole might be my most timely option.

It just dawned on me that if I turn a lip on a dowel, it isn't going to seal up against the angled hull (duh!).

The smaller tube through the stem looks good too. Choices, choices....

Thanks for the ideas and they help guys. I'll let you know what I end up with.

Kerry

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