Frustration with Epoxying!

[Bill Robb]

Hello again...

I'm hoping I can call upon your collective advice once again.

I'm finding that epoxying the hull of my Freedom 17 to be one of the most frustrating things I've ever done. You may recall, I posted a message two weeks ago about a flaw I discovered in my cloth (a hidden crease) , where I wound up with a bunch of ridges where the cloth lifted off the hull overnight after wetting it out, and applying two fill coats.

I got through that problem OK - through scraping and sanding. Last weekend, following Canoecraft, I attempted a final epoxy coat. I brushed it on, went across, up and down, diagonally, long flowing brush strokes - everything. Stayed with it for several hours, brushing the runs etc, till the point where it was no longer any use, the epoxy just got too tacky to brush. Next morning, I had it all - runs, hard puddles, orange peel texture - you name it. At the same time though, aside from the flaws, the hull looked just beautiful.

So for the last couple of nights, I've scraped down the runs, puddles and rough spots, and have started going at it with 120 grit sandpaper. I've done about 40% of the hull. What I've done is now smooth as silk - no cloth exposed, no pits, runs or rough spots. When I sponge it with water, no obvious blemishes appear and when I run my hand over it, I can't feel any definite bumps or anything.

What I've lost though is that real nice amber shiny glass look - the luster. While the hull is smooth, it now has an opaque, almost translucent look. Even sponging on water doesn't give it that rich look that the flawed epoxy coat did. Is this normal?

Next - I plan to apply Epifanes Clear varnish - maybe 4 coats. In your experience, will this bring back that warm, amber, glossy appearance that the unscraped and unsanded epoxy gave me before I started sanding it? Should I go over the entire hull again, with maybe 240 grit or even 400 grit to get rid of the opaque look?

I know some of you have answered these questions before - maybe dozens of times (I've done the searches!) But this is my first canoe, and I keep thinking I'm the only incompenetent epoxier around at the moment.

Once again, thanks for taking the time to read this, and I appreciate any reply you provide.

Bill.

[Glen Smith]

I don't know what brand of epoxy resin and hardener you used on this project. You could get runs and sags if that last coat was applied too thickly for the viscosity or if the temperature was too low in the shop.

The opaque look is normal. Applying varnish will make it beautiful once again, don't worry. I would stop sanding at 120 grit so there is some "tooth" for the varnish. However, you could do a hand-sand with a finer grit before varnishing if it makes you more comfortable. On one boat I did a 400 grit wet-sand before varnishing and that didn't cause any problems.

[Bill Robb]

Hi Glenn...

I should have mentioned...I'm using West System 105 / 207...

I was just out looking at it - now that my last spone job has dried, I see I still have a few shiny spots and pits. But after 4 coats, I think I have enough epoxy build-up to sand them out.

Bill.

[Rehd Brown]

Hey Bill

Sounds like you are doing just fine..! Aside from the BAD fabric and probably too thick a final coat, it sounds like you will have a nice finish.

I use an Auto Body Bondo applicator ( squeegee ) to apply ALL of my epoxy. You get a uniform / Thin coat and seldom any runs or Orange Peel. Orange Peel is typical of a 'too thick' application.

A fairing board is good to get everything even and eliminate the shiny spots. If they persist, you can dab on some epoxy in those shiny / low spots to raise them and then fair them out with the F.B..

Good luck with the varnish.

Rehd

[Bill Robb]

Thanks Rehd, for the advice.

I'm interested in your exclusive use of the squeegee. In my epoxying, I used a brush, roller and squeegee at various times. Although I was most nervous about using the squeegee - as it was something I had never done - it did in fact give me the best results and least grief. I'm now planning to make better use of it when I do the interior of my canoe.

Thanks...

Bill

[Glen Smith]

I use a brush on the saturation coat then I use a squeegee to remove the excess and lightly press the cloth against the wood so it isn't floating in the epoxy. On the second coat, I use the squeegee only. On the third and final coat I use a brush only. Using this procedure with West 105/207 on either 4oz or 6oz cloth has worked well for me. In other words, I pretty well follow Ted's instructions.

Edited: The squeegee does require proper technique; angle and pressure as stated in CanoeCraft to obtain the best results.

[canoeblderinmt]

Bill,
I have to second Rhed and partially second Glen. I am a squeegee-only guy. I tried rollers with terrible results, but have never tried brushing. I use Raka epoxy, which is pretty thin, and brushing might work well with it. I just really like using the squeegee. Glen is right, it does take technique and feel. If you are not a very tactile person, it might be a tough go. Most of the time my squeegee is held about 45 degrees from the hull, but this varies depending on the coat I am applying (wet-out, 2nd or 3rd), which part of the hull I am working, and how much resin I'm moving around. I often bend the squeegee in my hand (I use the 6" size) to follow around the bilge without taking too much resin in one place. I was very nervous when I did my first canoe, but looked forward to the process on the second.

Greg

[ealger]

Bill, my first attempt at epoxy/fiberglass was "interesting" but not a total loss. The one thing that had me hung up was the statement about how to drag the squeege. This document cleared this up for me:
http://www.westsystem.com/ewmag/16/fiberglassing.html

Under the heading "Using the Squeege", see the positon of Ted's hand and that his thumb is not "nearly touching the hull" as has been suggested elsewhere. The first epoxy wetout application is somewhat critical to getting a good foundation. Whether to do a precoat or not is a personal preference.

Getting the "extra" epoxy off on the wetout coat seems like such a waste but it's essential to do so none the less.
That's why they say, "Build 3 canoes; Sell the first, give the second to your best friend, and keep the third!"
Ed...

[AkDan]

build three??? As long as this first one has taken now I'll be long but dead by thte time number 3 is half done ;)!

What little experience I have I also felt the squeege gave me the best results. On the wet out it worked very well and also on the fill coats.

I did run a white roller a couple of times but got tired of the fuzz that came from it. You cant see it after you sand it smooth, so I guess it's no big deal and it did work quite well for the fill coats. Always seemed to go back to the squeege for the bulk of the work.