Herringbone or straight??

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Dennis of Douglas
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Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:21 am
Location: Douglas New Brunswick

Herringbone or straight??

Post by Dennis of Douglas »

Good day All.. I've noticed lately that most are not using the herringbone method of laying the center strips in favour of cutting a line down the centerline and butting the two sides together. Why is this??? Is there any problem in using the herringbone method? I will be at the center of the bottom by Friday morning. Please advise.

Thank you all,
Dennis of Douglas
Tim Eastman
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Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan, U.S.A.

Post by Tim Eastman »

Hi Dennis.

Herring Bone works as well as any other. I liked the idea but it did not look as if it would give me a sharply defined keel that's all. We compromised on our son's solo. We ran parallel strips down the middle (the whole canoe was rolling bevel) and mostly had parallel strips for the bottom and the bilge curve came down to meet it. It gave us some different design options and our son liked having some ownership in the aesthetics of the pattern.

I've seen the Herring Bone pattern done and it was done very well. With a sharply defined keel it might present a challenge. But if you want it go for it. I think it's very attractive.
Tim Eastman
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mtpocket
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Post by mtpocket »

Dennis,

I'll have to second what Tim said about the crisp keel line. I used the Herringbone pattern on my Redbird canoe and it was a tradeoff for a thin crisp keel line. Had I the chance to do it over again I would not have done it. More experienced builders might be able to make it work but I surely couldn't. I added a link to a picture of my keel line to show you just how rounded off it looks with the Herringbone pattern. I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from doing it, just want to let you know the tradeoff.


http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v507/ ... P_0166.jpg
canoeblderinmt
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Location: Butte, MT

Post by canoeblderinmt »

Dennis,
I built two White Guides, both of which have (or at least are supposed to have) flat bottoms. I herring-boned both of them as that was the method described in the book I was following. While I like the look, on my next boat I want to try something a little more exotic like Tim did with the center strips.

If you bead and cove, you will need to figure out how to mate the ends with the opposite strips. I strip bead up, so I chiseled a flat spot for the end of each strip to butt to. You can kind of see in this pic:
Image

Greg
" Choose to chance the rapids, Dare to dance the tide..."
Oshan OkaPini
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Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:57 am
Location: Jackson, Mississippi

Herringbone bottom

Post by Oshan OkaPini »

I opted for the herringbone construction method when I built my Freedom 17. It takes a little more time to work out how to cut and shape the ends, but not too bad. The biggest obstacle came when I was trying to get the final few strips to fit to closet off the hull. It took a bit of coaxing and fitting, but the strips finally went together.

As the others have noted, it does not lend itself very well for sharp keel definition, but the Freedom 17 isn't designed like that anyway. On the other hand, because of the mechanical meshing of the strips and grain, you gain a degree of rigid strength in the hull in an area that would be relying on strength of the glue bonding at the centerline.

Cheers

Oshan
Right now, there is no cure.
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chrisg
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Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: New Brunswick, Canada

Hi Dennis

Post by chrisg »

Are you in Douglas near Fredericton, i'm in the Stanley area and starting to build Gil Gilpatrick's Grand Laker, so far I have the stations all cut and am working on the strong back, I would love to take a peak at your boat sometime, I have been down the Restigouch in my kayak plenty of times and always loved the look of those motor canoes. Is 1 1/4" thick enough for the transom, Gil recomends 2" oak for the grand laker, and I have been looking for other suitable types of wood.

Chris
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Davesbuild
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Post by Davesbuild »

Hi Dennis,

Figured I'd chime in here too. I used the herringbone method to close in the football. Wouldn't do it any other way. Much stronger (although not an issue once glassed, but it holds things together until that time) - added appeal (looks better - in my humble opinion).

If you build with the bead up, it is VERY difficult to do the herringbone (if possible at all)??
The herringbone pattern is very easy to do if the cove is up during the build. Ensuring that you have a nice clean cut centre line (if not doing the herringbone) is much more difficult (for me anyway).

If you have any issues with having a sharp keel-line (assuming not using an added keel), keep in mind that a spoke shave and sanding block can give you that - no problem.

You can see my herringbone pattern on my photos page below. 5th picture on the left side.
http://home.cogeco.ca/~hotrods/Canoebuild/

Good luck with either way that you decide.

Davesbuild
Tim Eastman
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Post by Tim Eastman »

Thanks for documenting that Dave. That was genuinely interesting. Nice job on the build too.
Tim Eastman
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Davesbuild
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Post by Davesbuild »

Thanks Tim.

Your kind words are much appreciated.

I have visited your page in the past. Nice job also!

I have a couple of canoe trips planned for this summer, and likely another build late summer / early fall. The herringbone was MUCH easier than I had expected. Nobody should be hesitant to give it a go. If I can do it - most anyone can!

Davesbuild
Big Woody
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Post by Big Woody »

Where the keel started off sharp I tapered the ends of my strips on a belt sander and then glued them in together as pairs. Then where the bottom flattens out I transitioned to a double herringbone so I could keep the pattern centered on the centerline.
Image
The double herringbone is a bit difficult to see since I used some mahogany on the bottom that did not really have a distinct grain.
Image
I sanded the ends of the strips off at the correct angle and then ran them through the router to put a bead on them so they would fit perfectly into the cove on the other side. I tried to make them a hair long and then take a little off in the router until they fit tight. I enjoy being a perfectionist. When The strips got short and the bend got extreme I gave up trying to stuff a whole fitted strip in and made a design from some scraps to cut the strips in two so that I didn't end up tearing the edges of the cove off while forcing everything together. I just made the design up out of scraps as I went along to help me cheat the wood gremlins.
Image
When I finished the bottom it looked like I had planned out the design.
Image
I felt like the double herringbone was easy for me, even though I've never built a boat of any kind before. I didn't think getting the center cut perfect enough for my liking would have been as easy with the other method of going over center and then sawing everything off as straight as you can. The herringbone was quite easy on the flatter part of the football. If I had it to do over again I'd definitely do the double herringbone again (unlike my original stem layup that was way too much work and far heavier than the other methods I'd read about, and will look bulkier when I'm done) I also like the fact that my bead and coved double herring bone doesn't show light through the seam anywhere like the area before the transition did in a spot where my sanding and fitting wasn't up to my usual (airtight before the glue) perfection standard.
Tim Eastman
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Post by Tim Eastman »

Holy COW!! Big Woody comes in under the radar with a first post that is flat out AWEsome! Nice work! I am suitably and humbly impressed. And welcome to the forum!

:tu Two thumbs up bro :tu

Just so the rest of us can shamelessly take advantage of all your hard work - do you have a webpage where you documented some of those procedures?

Was this done stapless?

Very nice work Woody.
Tim Eastman
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frugal
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Post by frugal »

I agree with Tim's assessment. This is one awesome looking craft.

To paraphrase someone else on this forum, what scenery are you missing while you are staring down at your boat instead?
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Davesbuild
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Post by Davesbuild »

I'd dito that!

I just wanted to build a canoe - cause Ted said that I could...even with my "limited" skills.... but that is "artwork"!

Nice Job! :applause

Davesbuild
Big Woody
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Post by Big Woody »

Thank you guys for the compliments! I can feel my big head swelling even larger.
My wife has been taking photos of my project every so often as I went along. I think she is collecting it to document my insanity. I think she suspects my new hobby is the result of some kind of midlife crisis. I don't have anything up on the web yet, as my canoe is still half way done. Things were going along at about 3 or 4 pairs of strips a week for a while, then when I put the last strips on I told a guy who had a friend who was able to help me glass the canoe that I'd be ready in about two weeks, my wife said no way. That was about a year ago. We had another baby, our family finances went sour, my business got a lot more demanding, and so I don't get to do much on the canoe these days maybe an hour or two a month. I have to watch the baby and toddler when I get home, and am not permitted to run the noisy power tools after they go to sleep.

Jumping back in time:
One day I was at the gas station and a guy pulled up in a station wagon full of kids with a cedar strip canoe tied on the roof. I was instantly in envy of his fine canoe! I had not seen such a fine example of craftsmanship at my local Wal-Mart or any store. I asked him where he bought it, and the guy told me he made it himself and then drove away. Well I was stunned! Some station wagon driving schmo had something wonderful I couldn't buy in a store. So I set about to discover if I could make one for myself.

I thought that such a wonderful piece of handmade craftsmanship would serve as a legacy to someday tell my baby boy that his father was no schmo. Using the internet I soon discovered I needed to buy Canoecraft as everyone who has built a cedar strip canoe says it is required. After getting the book I went a step further and bought a DVD about building a Prospector and plans from some fat guy(a little bigger than me) up in the north east. After eagerly watching the entire DVD I was appalled at the crude way the guy slapped his canoe together. I was quickly convinced, if that slacker could could build a canoe, then so could I.

I decided to build a Hiawatha in my unfinished basement. My first order of business was to make sure that I would be able to get it out through the escape well window when I am done. I could not get a canoe out if it was much larger.

I decided to buy tools (deductible business expense) and make my own strips to save money. I got some 16' X1" X6" western red cedar boards, a redwood board, a 14' mahogany board and found a warped but usable 16' SPF 2 X 6 already in my basement.

I used to manufacture close tolerance aerospace parts out of exotic metals all day long, so machining the strips out of soft wood went like butter. After planing both sides of the boards and then planing both sides of my cut strips I went a little shallow on my perfectly centered cove to leave a little stronger edges to work with.

Although I try not to profit off of the enslavement of the Chinese people. I did buy a router table and planer from their Marxist captors, because the price was too good to pass up. Needless to say I feel for the poor drones, but the Chinamen who built the depth adjustment on the router table and made the planer blades out of pot metal deserve to have their ration of rice withheld for a few weeks. I wish I had supported American workers now.

Anyhow, the rest of my canoe went together pretty standard. I used clear packaging tape and 1/4 dowel rods to clamp the strips together. No staples were harmed in the making of my canoe. I went cove up. It worked well for me. But on the stems I thought that hand profiling the internal stem and gluing to a tiny imperfectly mating area was not for me. Thinking I was smarter than all who had gone before me I decided to do my stems my own way to avoid this imprecision and limited bonding area. In retrospect my rebellion has caused me much more labor and will result in a heavier stem area and has also grown my Hiawatha by about 5 or 6 inches giving it even finer ends than normal.

I'd like to put something together for the web, with pictures. Maybe I should do it in the Hiawatha project section?

Some day I look forward to hanging my artwork from the 23 foot cathedral ceiling in my living room. I'd like to try it out in the water, but only briefly, so as not to scuff it. I'd most likely blow a gasket if somebody nosed it up onto a sand beach. Maybe I'll use it with the family, since I'm supposed to be building it for my two boys, but I expect I'll be pretty anal about us not tearing it up. I don't expect I'll have enough time to build another one if I build it as slow as I am building this one.

Maybe tonight I'll try to post some more pictures up somewhere.

Thanks again for the encouragement.
Dennis of Douglas
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:21 am
Location: Douglas New Brunswick

Post by Dennis of Douglas »

Good Day, Thank you all for your much valued advice and spectacular photos!! I discussed this with my freind helping me build this 30' canoe, and we both agreed to use the cut center line method . Being that we are both "seasoned", (old) woodworkers this worked like a charm ending with very tight joints. This method seemed reasonable in that we are going to install both an inside and outside 3/4 X 2 1/2" ash keel. We have finished palnking, sahping the outside ash stem and sanding. We are now held up because my order of 55 yds of cloth and 33l of east system epoxy from Noahs was LOST in transit by the transport company!!!! :rolling eyes

I must say that we are a bit apprehensive about the glassing process since it has been 22 yrs since I fiberglassed and then it was with polyester resin.

Yes , we are in Douglas NB. I can be reached by e-mail at cmv2005 @ rogers.com

Regards, Dennis of Douglas
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