Hiding Bolts?

Welcome to the new Bear Mountain Builders Forum - an interactive internet service we provide to encourage communication between canoe and kayak builders
Post Reply
Selwyn
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: Kitchener, ON

Hiding Bolts?

Post by Selwyn »

I'm going to be installing the seats this weekend but I would like to do so in a way where you can't see any of the hardware used. As much as I think about it the more I think it can't be done. So I thought I'd post and see if any body has some pic's or could explain how to accomplish this.
User avatar
Patricks Dad
Posts: 1476
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:11 pm
Location: Warrenville, Illinois

Post by Patricks Dad »

One way to go about this is to not use any bolts at all. The first canoe we built used 3/8" dowels to hold the seats and yoke in place. We drilled slightly tapered holes in the gunwales, inserted dowels with a split end and drove small wedges into the dowels and held them all in place with epoxy. The dowels were either cherry or walnut and the wedges were either walnut or cherry (for contrast). We tested one of the joints first to see how strong it was. We hung a 200+ pound anvil from a single joint and it held up just fine.

The 2nd canoe we built used traditional bolts with brass diamond shaped heads that are plainly visible. I think both look fine.
Randy Pfeifer
(847) 341-0618
Randy.Pfeifer1@gmail.com
User avatar
Jim Dodd
Posts: 1359
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:08 pm
Location: Iowa

Post by Jim Dodd »

I'd stick with bolts.
When I first started building, I used common zinc carrage bolts, and brazed the tops, then polished then to look like brass. It worked fine.
Now I just buy stainless and polish them.

As for wood dowels, They would look great, but I fear what time and the elements would do to them.

The best solution That I've seen, is to epoxy wood cleats to the hull about 3 or 4in below the gunnels, rest your seat frames on them, then run screws from under the cleats into the seat. No metal showing.

Good luck
Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!
User avatar
Jim Dodd
Posts: 1359
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:08 pm
Location: Iowa

Post by Jim Dodd »

Sorry one more method came to mind.
Countersink pan head, 1/4in bolts, enough to cover with a wood plug.
That would in my opinion be the best !
Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!
AlanWS
Posts: 209
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:30 pm
Location: Shorewood, WI

Post by AlanWS »

Here's a link tyo a guy who embeds the hardware in the gunwales so it's invisible:
http://www.greenval.com/FAQhidden.html
He then adds some awful looking piece of hardware, but that does not hold on the seat or thwart.

I used a different approach on one boat: I simply fit blocks of wood to the curve of the hull, epoxied them in place, and mounted the seats on top of them. It's true that one of the 8 blocks did come loose, but it took 35 years, and was easy to re-epoxy in place.
Alan
Selwyn
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:52 pm
Location: Kitchener, ON

Post by Selwyn »

So if I were to counter sink bolts how thick should I leave the inwale beneath the bolt head for structure.
Rod Tait

Post by Rod Tait »

I have hidden bolts in gunwales for customers. With a 7/8" tall gunwale, you can drill all the way through for the diameter of the shank of the bolt and then drill half way through for the head of the bolt. If you use a carriage bolt, the head will not spin as you tighten the nuts or you can use a hex head bolt and then fill around the head with thickened epoxy to afix the head so that it does not spin. Once the seats are firmly in place and you are sure that the heads will not spin, bung the hole.
User avatar
Jeff in Farmington, MI
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:19 pm
Location: Farmington, Michigan, USA

Post by Jeff in Farmington, MI »

I conceiled all of the hardware for the seats and yoke on my canoe. For me, a totally smooth gunnel surface was worth the extra effort.

The Heli-coil insert from Green Valley is probably the best option (for all the reasons Martin Step describes), although the most costly and difficult. I recognized the danger of splitting the gunnel when using a regular wood insert, but at the time, I did not think of using a Heli-coil. Instead, I used is called a "binding post". This is essentially a short tube, threaded on the inside, with a flange on one end. A male fastener of your choice is threaded into the end of the binding post opposite the flange.

I drilled through my 3/4" thick gunnel, and countersunk just deep enough from the top to conceal the flange under a VERY thin wood plug. Just like the Heli-coil, the diameter of the binding post is not much larger then the seat-hanging bolt or rod. So, you are not compromising the strength of the gunnel. The bolt or threaded rod comes up from below. CAREFUL not to allow too much tread engagement, or you will pop the plug out from the top of the gunnel. Setting the binding post in the gunnel with a little epoxy prevents it from turning.

I found stainless steel binding posts, 10-24 thread (I think), and 1/2" long. If you like, I could probably search my records for the supplier.

Jeff
mbolton
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:52 pm
Location: Michigan

Awful looking hdwre

Post by mbolton »

Alan,
Were you referring to the rope cleat and compass added on in the photo from the GreenValley site? Those wouldn't be on for most folks
AlanWS
Posts: 209
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:30 pm
Location: Shorewood, WI

Post by AlanWS »

Yes I was referring to those. I am sorry if I gave the impression that I did not think it was a good solution -- I think it's an excellent one. I just thought it ironic that the particular photo used to show the lack of hardware had such an ugly (IMO) piece of hardware in it. His method without that would be beautiful.
Alan
User avatar
BradRob
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:12 am
Location: Grayling, Mich.

Post by BradRob »

I countersunk my hand made bolts and filled the holes with darkened epoxy. It looks good. I am going to cap the inwales next time with a thin piece of hardwood. This method will be totaly invisible. i use threaded rod and a nut epoxied in the countersunk hole. I waxed the rod and scewed on the nut then slipped it into the hole and epoxied around the nut. By waxing the threads of the rod i can remove the rod and replace the seats or thwart at any time.
Post Reply