Are there any online places that handle IF epoxies? Is it mostly a Canadian product or is it sold in the states also?
Thanks
Steve
Industrial Formulators Epoxy
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Glen Smith
- Posts: 3719
- Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 9:08 am
- Location: Baie-St-Paul, Quebec, Canada
This is the link to their website: http://www.indform.com/
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Todd Bradshaw
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 8:16 pm
Raised grain actually has more surface area than smoothed or sanded-down grain, as well as more tooth. It's the epoxy which sticks to the wood, not the cloth. The cloth is merely sitting on a very thin layer of epoxy and basically suspended in it. If you'll do a little peel testing I think that you'll find that the more you polish the surface of the wood with finer and finer grits or by raising the grain, the easier it will be to peel the glass off later. Assuming that you use adequate weights of cloth to achieve the impact strength and rigidity that a particular boat needs, peel strength and it's ability to resist delamination as well as the sheer strength of the laminate are major players in stripper durability. It seems to me that raising the grain will do little other than lower the peel strength. Since back when I started building strippers and other boats in the early 1970's I have never raised the grain on a wooden surface that was going to be either epoxy-coated or fiberglassed. Yes, you need to sand well and remove any sanding scratches which might show through, but you certainly don't need to use water to achieve that state.
Epoxy/fiberglass to wood is purely a mechanical bond and the reason that glue manufacturers and paint manufacturers tell you to rough-up a surface before applying their products is to give the surface more tooth for a better bond.
Epoxy/fiberglass to wood is purely a mechanical bond and the reason that glue manufacturers and paint manufacturers tell you to rough-up a surface before applying their products is to give the surface more tooth for a better bond.
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Erik, Belgium
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 5:31 am
- Location: Gierle, Belgium
- Contact:
raising the grain prior the fibreglassing
I completely agree with Todd, and don't see the point either why I should wetten the wood in order to raise the grains. That have to be sanded after that.
I don't see the point, same reason why I don't sand beyond 80 grid: you want the wood to be rough enough so it will soak up epoxy well.
I don't see the point, same reason why I don't sand beyond 80 grid: you want the wood to be rough enough so it will soak up epoxy well.
Steve in Kazoo;
Noah's Marine carries some IF products. Not sure if they carry all of it. They sell on both sides of the border.
www.noahsmarine.com
(BTW - where is Kazoo)
Noah's Marine carries some IF products. Not sure if they carry all of it. They sell on both sides of the border.
www.noahsmarine.com
(BTW - where is Kazoo)
My two cents on applying water to the strips - any bruised or dented areas that have been sanded smooth will swell up more strongly than the surrounding uncompressed wood, so these might result in a high spot if left unwetted, and the epoxy raises the damaged wood.. Then again, they might not show, if sanding the epoxy eventually eliminates the high spot. OTOH, if the epoxy isn't thick enough, sanding through to the glass could result.
I just see this as another step to help ensure a smooth surface and keep the glass a little closer to the strips, whether it does or doesn't help, only shows up when some high spots appear when sanding the epoxy. This wasn't a lot of work, and may have reduced epoxy sanding time.
BTW, applying a little water to accidental dents and scratches in softwood will help to eliminate them before finishing and final sanding.
I just see this as another step to help ensure a smooth surface and keep the glass a little closer to the strips, whether it does or doesn't help, only shows up when some high spots appear when sanding the epoxy. This wasn't a lot of work, and may have reduced epoxy sanding time.
BTW, applying a little water to accidental dents and scratches in softwood will help to eliminate them before finishing and final sanding.
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Daryldog
Epoxy
Re: Raising the Grain - I do it as I find that after the wetting/raising/sanding the hull was smoother and the cloth was able to lay out better. It stuck a bit before. I also agree that it's better to raise the grain and sand it off rather than having it come up after the cloth is laid out and the epoxy is applied.....no way to get at it then. All in all the wetting/raising/sanding takes less than 1/2 hour so it's not a big deal.
Re: Epoxy suppliers - I have no connection to these folks other than buying supplies (ie. I can't even name anyone who works there) so hopefully this isn't considered to be SPAM. I bought my glassing supplies from Fibre-Tek in Burnaby BC. They do on-line ordering and all their products and prices are on the website at http://www.fiber-tek.com It's a good site to compare prices between West and Industrial Formulators.
Colm, good to meet with you yesterday. Good luck with your project.
Re: Epoxy suppliers - I have no connection to these folks other than buying supplies (ie. I can't even name anyone who works there) so hopefully this isn't considered to be SPAM. I bought my glassing supplies from Fibre-Tek in Burnaby BC. They do on-line ordering and all their products and prices are on the website at http://www.fiber-tek.com It's a good site to compare prices between West and Industrial Formulators.
Colm, good to meet with you yesterday. Good luck with your project.
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WarpedBoard
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:46 pm
- Location: Nine Mile Falls, WA
I just wanted to confirm that Colm was correct further up in the thread, that System Three Resins does appear to be the owner of Industrial Formulators. A quick domain name lookup confirmed this along with a call to System Three. They have had IF since May of '99 according to Melanie at the order desk. Have a call in to their sales manager asking for a comparison.
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Jeff in Pembroke
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:26 am
I recall reading about raising the wood grain in several books about woodfinishing. If I remember correctly it was important when water-based stains such as aniline dyes were used. If the wood wasn't wetted and then sanded smooth before the stain was applied, then the water-based stain would raise the grain and leave a rough tabletop or other surface. I don't believe this is a concern with oil-based finishes. One can apply an oil based stain over a smoothly sanded piece of wood and it doesn't raise the grain the way a water-based stain does - the surface remains smooth. The same is true (I believe) for alcohol-based stains.
Since epoxy isn't a water-based product it shouldn't raise the grain of the underlying wood and make it uneven. If the surface is smoothly sanded it should stay smooth. If you make it rough by wetting it, then sand it smooth again before the epoxy, it will also stay smooth - no disadvantage except for the extra time. It seems different builders have had comperable results with and without raising the grain. My humble suggestion would be to do what works for you and don't worry too much about it.
Jeff
Since epoxy isn't a water-based product it shouldn't raise the grain of the underlying wood and make it uneven. If the surface is smoothly sanded it should stay smooth. If you make it rough by wetting it, then sand it smooth again before the epoxy, it will also stay smooth - no disadvantage except for the extra time. It seems different builders have had comperable results with and without raising the grain. My humble suggestion would be to do what works for you and don't worry too much about it.
Jeff
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Todd Bradshaw
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 8:16 pm
Epoxy does raise the grain. Just dry-sand a chunk of 2x4 and roll on a single light coat of resin, let it cure and see for yourself. My point here is that cosmetically, it doesn't matter and structurally you're quite likely to get a better bond by allowing the resin on a stripper to raise the grain. When you apply a hard layer of fiberglass to a soft layer of wood you are mixing two very different materials and you can use all the help you can get when it comes to sheer strength of the laminate. People seem to be confusing fiberglass lamination to wood with fine woodworking, which it isn't. What I might do to a mahogany gunwale to get a nice smooth varnish application and what I might do to a cedar hull that's about to get 12-15 mils of cloth and resin and which needs to be able to survive occasional impacts with rocks are quite different.
Epoxy doesn't "soak" into wood anywhere near as far as most people think it does. The major strength of the bond is created right at, or very close to, the surface of the wood with the resin keying in on anything it can get hold of. The more micro-structure it can grab, the stronger the bond. We won't even go into the fact that putting water onto and into a piece of wood that you soon plan to epoxy coat is often a bad idea unless you have a means of then lowering the moisture content or are willing to wait for the wood to dry out again before proceeding. It wouldn't sirprise me if some of those "My resin looks cloudy" posts that we see here are being caused by moisture coming out of the wood during glassing. I also don't buy and have seen no evidence yet of the grain raising during epoxy application and causing unfair spots where dents, tool marks or other small areas expand to make noticable bumps, etc. on the hull. When you go over a cedar/canvas canoe's hull to remove hammer marks from the plank-nailing process, prior to canvasing, you use a rag on a stick which has been dunked in boiling water. Even so, you may not get all of them out. If your stripper hull is sanded fair to start with, the limited pot time of the first coat of resin and the fact that it doesn't soak in very far due to it's viscosity are not enough to raise unfair bumps in the hull shape. After that coat, the grain, smooth or not is "locked" and won't raise any more.
The question then becomes "How much can the grain raise before it shows through a light layer of fiberglass and several filler coats". The answer is "Quite a bit - and most likely far more than you would ever need to worry about on a hull that you considered adequately sanded and ready to glass". Jeff mentioned stains, This is a boat where I veneered the sides and transom with mahogany, set in epoxy over the cedar planking. It was power disk-sanded to about 100 grit and then got two coats of alcohol-based stain, which raised the grain like crazy. After that, you can't sand it much, if at all, because it scratches the stain off. So I didn't. It got six thin, rolled-on "filler" coats of WEST 105/207 over the raised grain (no cloth needed on this one) followed by final sanding and gloss varnish. Even without the cloth, the resin thickness was adequate to fill and hide any evidence of the raised grain. It simply doesn't show at all. The finished boat was smooth as a baby's bottom and had a deep, glossy varnished finish like grandma's prized dining room table.
If you like to pre-coat your hulls with resin before applying the glass, you do need to be careful draping the roll of glass over a cured pre-coat and the epoxy-raised grain as it will tend to snag cloth strands. You have to lower the fabric very gently onto the hull and move it around as little as possible. I've never thought I gained anything by pre-coating, so I generally don't do it any more. Raising the grain first would certainly make for a smoother pre-coated hull and allow easier cloth draping, but given the option, I'd just as soon let the resin raise the grain to achieve the best mechanical bond possible.
Epoxy doesn't "soak" into wood anywhere near as far as most people think it does. The major strength of the bond is created right at, or very close to, the surface of the wood with the resin keying in on anything it can get hold of. The more micro-structure it can grab, the stronger the bond. We won't even go into the fact that putting water onto and into a piece of wood that you soon plan to epoxy coat is often a bad idea unless you have a means of then lowering the moisture content or are willing to wait for the wood to dry out again before proceeding. It wouldn't sirprise me if some of those "My resin looks cloudy" posts that we see here are being caused by moisture coming out of the wood during glassing. I also don't buy and have seen no evidence yet of the grain raising during epoxy application and causing unfair spots where dents, tool marks or other small areas expand to make noticable bumps, etc. on the hull. When you go over a cedar/canvas canoe's hull to remove hammer marks from the plank-nailing process, prior to canvasing, you use a rag on a stick which has been dunked in boiling water. Even so, you may not get all of them out. If your stripper hull is sanded fair to start with, the limited pot time of the first coat of resin and the fact that it doesn't soak in very far due to it's viscosity are not enough to raise unfair bumps in the hull shape. After that coat, the grain, smooth or not is "locked" and won't raise any more.
The question then becomes "How much can the grain raise before it shows through a light layer of fiberglass and several filler coats". The answer is "Quite a bit - and most likely far more than you would ever need to worry about on a hull that you considered adequately sanded and ready to glass". Jeff mentioned stains, This is a boat where I veneered the sides and transom with mahogany, set in epoxy over the cedar planking. It was power disk-sanded to about 100 grit and then got two coats of alcohol-based stain, which raised the grain like crazy. After that, you can't sand it much, if at all, because it scratches the stain off. So I didn't. It got six thin, rolled-on "filler" coats of WEST 105/207 over the raised grain (no cloth needed on this one) followed by final sanding and gloss varnish. Even without the cloth, the resin thickness was adequate to fill and hide any evidence of the raised grain. It simply doesn't show at all. The finished boat was smooth as a baby's bottom and had a deep, glossy varnished finish like grandma's prized dining room table.
If you like to pre-coat your hulls with resin before applying the glass, you do need to be careful draping the roll of glass over a cured pre-coat and the epoxy-raised grain as it will tend to snag cloth strands. You have to lower the fabric very gently onto the hull and move it around as little as possible. I've never thought I gained anything by pre-coating, so I generally don't do it any more. Raising the grain first would certainly make for a smoother pre-coated hull and allow easier cloth draping, but given the option, I'd just as soon let the resin raise the grain to achieve the best mechanical bond possible.
Certianly an interesting subject, I do however feel raising the grain is a step I would not eliminate. If the grain is raised prior to epoxy then knocked of with a sanding, I use 80 grit to do this the mechanical bond between hull & cloth has to be better. If you miss this step and the epoxy raises the grain the is no way you can possibly avoid a puddling of the expoxy in the voids caused by the raised grain. The specific gravity of standard 6 oz cloth will simply not allow the cloth to settle in the voids and the squeegee process will agrevate the process even further. If you use S cloth that has an even higher specific gravity then the cloth will sit on the riased areas for sure. Certianly
each builder will have their own opinion on the subject and there are many boats out there that work just fine that did not have the grain raised and sanded prior to epoxy.
gc
each builder will have their own opinion on the subject and there are many boats out there that work just fine that did not have the grain raised and sanded prior to epoxy.
gc
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Todd Bradshaw
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 8:16 pm
Puddles???? Voids???Just how high do you believe the little raised fibers are? If you've got either puddles or voids between the cloth and the wood, whether you raise the grain beforehand or not, you're doing something very wrong. There is no visible remaining sign showing whether you raised the grain or not as soon as the first layer of cloth is laminated to the hull because it's much, much thicker than any of the raised fibers. You guys must think there are going to be 1/4" dips, bumps and hollows all over the hull if you don't raise the grain first, which certainly is not the case. Either you are speaking theoretically without ever actually glassing a hull without raising the grain first or you have been trying to glass over some pretty lumpy woodwork. All that raising the grain should do - whether done before glassing with water or during lamination with epoxy is leave a slightly fuzzy surface on the wood. As I mentioned before, it does require a properly sanded hull and that means getting rid of any sander marks, humps, voids, etc. before glassing but the idea of the raised grain interfering with getting the cloth down tight on the hull is crazy and certainly not a perspective based on actual experience.
Take a company like Gougeon Brothers (manufacturers of WEST epoxy), for example. They have spent nearly 30 years building custom racing sailboats using strip-planked cedar, cold-molded cedar veneer and epoxy-coated marine plywood. Their reputation and that of their products is on the line every time they build a boat. The hulls of nearly all of these boats are either epoxy-coated or fiberglassed inside and out, as are most of the components like bulkheads. Many of the structural elements for these boats are bonded with epoxy without using mechanical fasteners. Prime criteria are light weight, maximum strength, impact resistance, durability through repeated cycles of stress loading and unloading and where fiberglass is concerned, resistance to delaminating or failure of the lamination. Sound familiar to canoe builders? These are big-time, big dollar projects and in many cases the stresses on these boats and the anchors for their sail rigs are measured in thousands of pounds. These guys work in carefully controlled environments to keep the wood's moisture content as low as possible. They know that the last thing you want to do to a wooden surface before epoxy-coating it is add moisture to it because it reduces the strength of the bond. Do you honestly believe that they get out a wet rag and raise the grain on a 40' racing sailboat's hull before coating or glassing it?
Take a company like Gougeon Brothers (manufacturers of WEST epoxy), for example. They have spent nearly 30 years building custom racing sailboats using strip-planked cedar, cold-molded cedar veneer and epoxy-coated marine plywood. Their reputation and that of their products is on the line every time they build a boat. The hulls of nearly all of these boats are either epoxy-coated or fiberglassed inside and out, as are most of the components like bulkheads. Many of the structural elements for these boats are bonded with epoxy without using mechanical fasteners. Prime criteria are light weight, maximum strength, impact resistance, durability through repeated cycles of stress loading and unloading and where fiberglass is concerned, resistance to delaminating or failure of the lamination. Sound familiar to canoe builders? These are big-time, big dollar projects and in many cases the stresses on these boats and the anchors for their sail rigs are measured in thousands of pounds. These guys work in carefully controlled environments to keep the wood's moisture content as low as possible. They know that the last thing you want to do to a wooden surface before epoxy-coating it is add moisture to it because it reduces the strength of the bond. Do you honestly believe that they get out a wet rag and raise the grain on a 40' racing sailboat's hull before coating or glassing it?
Wow! This forum is fantastic. I'm amazed by all the responses I had regarding advice on IF epoxy and what this question has led to. This is what a good forum is all about. Thanks to everyone for there responses and advice and especially thanks to Rob for showing me his fantastic canoe the other day. I’m definitely going to use the IF epoxy for my fiber-glassing which I’ll be ready for in the next couple weeks (I know I said I’m 2 weeks away about 2 weeks ago, but geez this sanding is taking a long time) :? . Anyways, I’m not even game to tell you guys whether I’m going to wet my hull down and sand before fiber-glassing – I don’t think I could take it :twisted: .
Colm
Colm