fiberglass

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doe4rae
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fiberglass

Post by doe4rae »

I put the last strip on last night and so now I'm thinking about fiberglass. The nearest supplier (where I bought my westsystmes 105/207) also carries fiberglass but when I called them yesterday they told me their 6 oz. cloth was a max 38" width and about 10.00 a yard. I see on the bearmountain boat shop website that the 6 oz. cloth at 60" wide is 10.50. Obviously a better deal even with shipping costs.

I have a few questions I guess. The local supplier told me that he could special order the 60" width but by using the 38" I can double up over the keel line and add extra strength there. He also said it probably wasn't really necessary to put the fiberglass on the inside of the boat, just a couple layers of epoxy resin. This is new to me so I don't know how "necessary" the fiberglass is inside. Has anyone here ever NOT used glass inside the boat? Also how much happier would I be with one solid piece inside and outside versus trying to fit two 38" widths to cover the boat? My hull at the center station measures about 56" . The boat is 15.5' long.

Just trying to decide what to do here in terms of how much to use and what size to buy and where to buy it. I plan to use the canoe in lakes and rivers and since a lot of our rivers are pretty shallow here in SD (with the exception of the Missouri) I tend to run into a lot of things. I plan to add a keel even though the plan doesn't call for one but do I need extra glass on the stems? the bottom of the hull on the outside or inside or both?
Any ideas or suggestions are much appreciated.
Dawne Olson

"The human soul needs actual beauty more than bread" ~DH Lawrence
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Juneaudave
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Post by Juneaudave »

I would order some 60" - 6oz plain weave from Raka or other supplier...Raka Cloth... The Raka guys are pretty quick and the cloth comes rolled...Dave
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Sherm
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Post by Sherm »

I think you'll be happier with the 60" cloth, yea overlapping would add a little strenght
but that 6oz cloth is going to be plently strong, I think the over lapping will add alittle
more aggravation...... I used 4oz cloth on the inside an I'm pleased with it so far....
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doe4rae
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Post by doe4rae »

Sherm, did you use the 4 oz. cloth on the inside in addition to a layer of 6 oz. or just 6 oz. on the outside and 4 in the inside? seems like people use two layers sometimes on the bottom.
Dawne Olson

"The human soul needs actual beauty more than bread" ~DH Lawrence
Rick
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Post by Rick »

I plan to use the canoe in lakes and rivers and since a lot of our rivers are pretty shallow here in SD (with the exception of the Missouri) I tend to run into a lot of things. I plan to add a keel even though the plan doesn't call for one but do I need extra glass on the stems? the bottom of the hull on the outside or inside or both?
If there are plenty of sharp rocks where you'll be canoeing, an extra layer of fiberglass on the bottom will help prevent damage. Several layers under the stems will help as well since this is where the wear is often the greatest. Canoes suffer most from abrasion as more and more of the bottom becomes worn away with time. With a stripper, you'll see this after the first few times out, be prepared to make repairs when necessary.

I'd forget the keel... a keel is more work, both during construction, and if it needs to be removed to repair a large area with a new layer of fiberglass. Most modern designs do not have keels, and the performance of your cedarstrip may be compromised by being a little slower, and less responsive in turns. Cedarstrip canoes are some of the most rigid anywhere and their performance on the water can be great... there's no reason to mess that performance up with a keel.

Protection from rocks is best done by adding another layer of fiberglass... you'll see that most scratches on the hull's bottom will not be along the keel line (although under the stems there will probably be plenty).

I've been pounding the table on the anti-keel crusade too often here, so here's a quote from Cliff Jacobsen, a MInnesota expert... good luck with your cedarstrip and many happy hours spent paddling.
Keels

An external keel will make any canoe track (hold its course) better. However, it will also act as a cow-catcher in rapids; it'll hang up on rocks and cause upsets. There's smug satisfaction in watching your buddies spill when the keel of their canoe catches on the same rock that your "keel-less" canoe slid easily over just moments before. Later, when your friends have dried out you'll swear that your superiority in rapids is due to your impeccable paddling skill rather than a smooth bottom canoe.

Let's not mince words. External keels are an inferior canoe design. A canoe which requires an after-thought tacked on below to make it paddle straight, belongs back on the re-drawing board. Good tracking may be achieved simply by combining a round or Vee bottom, with narrow ends, a straight keel-line (more on this later) and somewhat squarish stems (ends). Aluminum canoes are formed in two halves, so they need a keel to hold the halves together. But even here, the keel could be mounted on the inside of the hull rather than the outside.

The real reason for keels is to stiffen a floppy bottom. The biggest, flattest canoe bottom can be strengthened considerably by hanging a piece of angle aluminum or one-by-two along its length. Throw in a bunch of ribs and maybe a vertical strut or three — and the most shapeless hull will become rigid.

Rule Three: Avoid canoes with keels. Exception — aluminum canoes which don't come any other way. Some aluminum canoe makers offer shallow draft "shoe" keels on their heavyweight white water models. Shoe keels make a lot more sense than the standard T-grip rock grabbers.


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0762705248?tag ... WH8N3FGS7N&
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doe4rae
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thanks Rick....

Post by doe4rae »

... this is a whole new perspective on keels! Thanks for posting this information. I had two 17ft. aluminum canoes (which I sold to be able to build this boat) and I just assumed that since they had keels, that my cedar strip should too. Plus I thought it might look nicer. The other consideration was that I had read someone else's post here in the forum describing their "cottage cruiser" as a little tippy and I thought it might add some stability.

However, it makes far more sense to leave it off and find out how the canoe handles without it and I can always add it later if I feel it is really missing something. Right?
Dawne Olson

"The human soul needs actual beauty more than bread" ~DH Lawrence
Rick
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Post by Rick »

You can always add a keel on later if you feel it's necessary. But it might at some time catch on rocks... a keel caught on the rocks might tear the fiberglass away from the cedar when a smooth bottom will simply slide over with minimal damage.

Your call... add a keel, remove a keel, you built it, you can fix it.
willo
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Post by willo »

No one with building experience would ever tell you to omit the inside cloth. Many builders add extra cloth on the bottom , but this is for abrasion protection only, this does not give any strength to the huull against any force such as hitting a rock. To stregthen the hull extra glass would need to be added on the inside. A boat with 6oz on the inside and 4 oz on the outside would have more strength than if it were applied the way mentioned above. Extra layers are the choice of the builder , but if you want strength always glass the inside equal to the out side or better.
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Sherm
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Post by Sherm »

....just a single layer of 6oz on the outside and a single of 4oz on the inside.
I've been fairly abusive with it in some class I and class II shoals and its holding
up fine so far.....
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Woodchuck
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Post by Woodchuck »

Here is a new source to me located in Ashtabula, Ohio and they seem to have good prices. Infinity FRP Supply. Web site is: http://stores.infinityfrp.com/
Joe "Woodchuck" Gledhill
Garden City, MI
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Jim Dodd
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Post by Jim Dodd »

Hi Dawn
RAKA has been a good supplier of cloth and epoxy. I'd give Larry the two thumbs up.
Order the "Blush free" epoxy, I believe the 350. Larry is very helpful if you have ?

As for cloth application. I go 6oz inside and out, and another 6oz layer on the outside bottom that covers up to the 2in waterline.
Some will say this is over kill, but I've seen what happens to the ultralight canoes, first hand in the BWCA. If you go ultralight, pack along some duct tape !

On the outside, I apply a seal coat, let it harden, scrape with a razorblade any imperfections that will hold the cloth away from the hull. VERY important !

Then put on your first layer of 6oz, this will cover the whole hull. Apply mixed resin, I prefer rollers ! Allow this to harden past the tacky stage.

Now is when I apply the extra 6oz on the bottom.
Scrape, or "feather" the edges of the second layer later.
You will find this second layer will disappear when you varnish.

Now proceed to fill the weave of the cloth with additional coats of mixed resin. A very helpful hint will be to apply your fill coats while the previous coat is still tacky !!! This prevents runs that are a real bugger to remove later ! The only drawback is you will be up in the nite putting on additional layers, a coat about every 2 to 3hrs depending on temperature. Believe me it's worth it !

After about 4 or 5 coats the weave of the cloth should disappear, and you can rest.
I'd wait a day, and come back and scrape,not sand. imperfections. The resin is still soft enough to do this.

Next wait about seven days and sand.

Sorry for getting carried away but, but I've done 19 of my own and helped nearly that many others locally.

Good Luck !
Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!
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doe4rae
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Post by doe4rae »

Thanks Jim for the extra additional tips.... some of those details answered a few nagging questions left about time between coats and also about how many coats of epoxy resin to add and foam brushes versus bristle. I know what they recommend in CanoeCraft but there is so much difference in types of use for any particular canoe and then a person starts hearing all kinds of different ways of doing the next step that before long you are second guessing everything about it.
Wow you've built a lot of boats!! I will be happy with this build so long as it handles well and doesn't fall apart. I know it won't be perfect in craftsmanship -- I've really struggled with some of the finer woodworking aspects but so far I'm quite pleased!
Thanks again for the great time and detail you put into your response and all for the advice and useful links to suppliers!!
I have never tipped my aluminum canoes but I have seen other people do it and I can't believe it might have been the keel all this time! (Of course, as the author mentioned there is no option with the aluminum construction being done in halves) but what a revelation!
Happy New Year everyone
Dawne Olson

"The human soul needs actual beauty more than bread" ~DH Lawrence
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Jim Dodd
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Post by Jim Dodd »

You're welcome !
I know glassing is the scariest part of putting a canoe together !
If you can find someone close that has built one, it's a great comfort if they could help !

When I order supplies, I order a doz foam rollers this is usually enough for one hull.

More tips. Order two gallons of resin and one of hardener, if you order from RAKA. They will come in full gallons, and to prevent mixing them up as you are mixing, buy just one pump to meter your hardener.

I mix 9oz at a time. Pour in 6oz of resin, and pump in 3oz of hardener. Mix for at least 90 seconds. It seems to work best if you have one person do the mixing and at least one applying resin.
I live in Humboldt Iowa, a little far away, but I have a friend that is going to start his first canoe this Spring, I'd love to bring him by to get his feet wet so to speak glassing a hull !

Anyway good luck !
Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!
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doe4rae
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did some browsing....

Post by doe4rae »

RAKA seems to have a really great price on the 60" cloth. I have to wait until Monday to place the order but I will need to check that their cloth is compatible with the West Systems 105/207 since I've already bought two gallons of that! I know you mentioned a different epoxy you used from RAKA but hopefully their cloth and the WestSystmes will be ok together. Right now I'm hung up on making a mortise for the outer stems. I have them shaped and an outline made on the hull where the mortise should be but I can't bring myself to do it. For want of a chisel. I've been shopping for "the right one" for a week. There are so many different kinds?! I found one in a japanese woodworking catalogue for $50 that is a 1/4" mortise chisel but I don't want to wait so long for it to get here so maybe when Stan Houston is open tomorrow I will have to see if they have one. I already wasted 20 dollars on 4 chisels that don't work. What the heck is a "cold" chisel anyway? I mean sure... you leave it outside in the shop this time of year at twenty below, it will be cold but I'm pretty sure that's not what they meant! In the meantime I am still fairing the hull and getting it ready for fiberglass so I'll keep you posted as the time approaches. I REALLY appreciate your offer to help and it looks like you are 3 hours straight East of me. (I'm a little north of Vermillion at the Spink Akron exit off I-29)
Dawne Olson

"The human soul needs actual beauty more than bread" ~DH Lawrence
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Patricks Dad
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Post by Patricks Dad »

I have used Raka glass with West System 105/207 epoxy with no problems.
Randy Pfeifer
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Randy.Pfeifer1@gmail.com
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