Uni-wale?

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mdevenyi
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Post by mdevenyi »

I'd love to see more photos of the build if you have time to post them online.
I'll upload a selection of pictures of various stages of the build to an image hosting site and post the link to this thread.

This guy uses tape with holes punched through it to laminate carbonfiber bike tubes. Do you think that could help improve your process or is it not worth the extra effort?
Using lengths of peel ply tape (2" wide strips) that I've tried appears to achieve essentially the same result as this punctured-tape method. My guess is that peel ply allows excess epoxy to migrate to the surface more evenly. I've experimented with vacuum bagging tubular-shaped objects consisting of CF sleeves around both foam cores as well as removable mandrels (tube molds), but have had issues with the CF fibers distorting--bunching up and kinking as they compress under pressure--instead of laying smoothly aligned and parallel, leading to spots of questionable strength.The hand-wrapped method may not be as good in terms of fiber-to-epoxy ratio, but with my limited setup and experience I have more control and can get predictable, repeatable results with these type of shapes.
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Bryan Hansel
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Post by Bryan Hansel »

Moonman - Do you think that the torque from the portage yoke would be more force than body weight? My solo canoe weighs 32 lbs. and I weigh 200. I imagine my body weight would be worse on the seat, but I guess I'm not sure how much force comes from the bow and stern swinging around in the air.

mdevenyi - looking forward to seeing more pictures. I linked to one from PaddlingLight's Facebook page.
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Moonman
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Post by Moonman »

Not sure Bryan, I'm thinking that the stress load would be a bit more dynamic with the bouncing you get while go over a portage as opposed to the gradual loading of sitting in a seat. Not sure if it really would matter though, as the epoxy bond should still be strong enough but there are a few ways to do the cleat thing so I guess a stronger method, with the seat 'locked' into the cleats, as opposed to just screwed down to them would be in order. I think it was Rick that wrote that he popped a seat in his Huron because of the way he adhered his cleat/seats?



Moonman.
Rick
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Post by Rick »

Moonman,
I think it was Rick that wrote that he popped a seat in his Huron because of the way he adhered his cleat/seats?
It wasn't me... I built a Huron, and the seats were attached with traditional drop bolts from the inwales.

There used to be photos online of the removeable yoke I described earlier installed by sliding the ends over the inwales... actually the yoke ends may have fitted into a groove formed between the inwale and a cleat underneath... there used to be photos online somnewhere, I'll see if I can find them.
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Moonman
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Post by Moonman »

Hi Rick, sorry about that, I think it may have been this builder:

http://tomangelakis.tripod.com/making_seats.htm - tom angelakas, who also built a Huron. although still not 100% sure where I read him saying it - maybe when he posted on this or myccr.com forums.

Anyway, for anyone interested, he has a nice build site, with details of mounting his seats and he also used a uniwale system using sitka.

moonman.
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Redbird Bernie
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Post by Redbird Bernie »

Bryan, while your prototype drawing based on the photo from Moonman looks fine, I have some difficulty visualizing whether or not this design will work well from a balance point of view, plus the seat may end up uncomfortably close to your back and neck during portaging.

What if the seat consisted of two parts, a yoke shaped back rail and the seat portion. I am thinking of a curved seat that mounts onto or inserts into the curved portion of the yoke. The yoke would be permanently attached to the hull.

It might be just as well to have an exchangeable seat/yoke arrangement, and store the seat while portaging.

Has anyone considered alternative methods of portaging. Would it make sense for example to carry the canoe on its side in similar fashion to a suitcase? Think both above or below the carrier's belt line. Could the canoe be portaged with the hull down and strapped on top of an especially designed backpack?

javascript:emoticon(':thinking') Just shooting wild ideas to throw away or build upon.

Bernie
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Moonman
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Post by Moonman »

Bernie,

Light jay (Morrison) built his yoke that way. I think Bryan's website has an overview of his boat construction which talks about it. The fore cross rail of his seat was also his curved, cut-out yoke (I did see a pic of it online somewhere once, I'll see if I can find it again) . The concern you might have is the trade off between the optimum seat paddling station position and the yoke balance point for portaging. So the yoke section of the seat rail may have to 'stick out' further away from the seat to compensate for this. Also, a solo canoe is typically about 12" deep at centre so, there is also consideration of seat height above the bottom of the hull for clearing your feet if kneeling, or just lower for good centre of gravity. Then the attached yoke may be a bit too low to clear your head when portaging.

Perhaps, if you build one this way and fit it to your own canoe these issues could be minimized. It sure would be a simple elegant solution if you could negate these (potential) issues.

Moonman.
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Redbird Bernie
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Post by Redbird Bernie »

Hi Moonman,

I think I may have seen the seat design you are talking about. Either way, I don't see seat height above the bottom of the hull for clearing your feet if kneeling as a consideration. If the canoe is designed with a center seat for solo paddling then kneeling is simply not an option. It is a trade off which most of us "old" guys won't worry about given our bad backs and knees.

Seat and yoke placement (other than height) can be dealt with. Most people like the yoke to be located slightly aft of center so they can see ahead better when portaging. The right balance point can be achieved by strategically relocating paddles or tying a counter weight near a stem.

The issue of head clearance while portaging is a different matter. There is little doubt that the seat would have to be set higher than usual in order to provide head clearance at the yoke. The more I think about this, the more a movable seat and removable yoke appear as the solution.

Has anybody heard anything more about Ted Moore's electric boat? Will he be selling plans do you think? In any case it is a beauty.

Bernie
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Glen Smith
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Post by Glen Smith »

I don't know if Ted intends to sell plans but they sure did enjoy "Sparks" after launching took place: http://www.bearmountainboats.com/launch_date.htm

The front edge of a solo seat should be located 6" aft of the boat's balance point from what I have been told. A portage yoke goes pretty near that too so I think removeable is in order. The only other way would be to use a sliding seat with a built-in yoke along the rear edge and locate the seat so it can slide into ideal location for the paddling and a different ideal location for yoke position.

Some builders might want to incorporate a backrest and yoke into the design. :thinking
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Patricks Dad
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Post by Patricks Dad »

Glen, I'm thinking of a backrest that flips down and becomes the yoke. It will raise the "yoke" up a couple inches above the seat (helping with the headroom concern several builders have voiced here). I have a couple ideas for addressing the torque problem the yoke might place on the seat rail as well. I'll post a drawing once I have doodled one.

No portage yoke on the Spark?
Randy Pfeifer
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Randy.Pfeifer1@gmail.com
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Moonman
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Post by Moonman »

Thanks for the info on seat location Glen, I was just going to ask Randy if Steve's plans included any info on seat placement for the Freedom Solo.

The other thing that will help is the asymmetrical hull, wider(and heavier) aft of centre, lets you get away with an extra inch or two aft of centre for the yoke placement. I do think the swing down yoke could be good, esp. as you could incorporate the backrest. You could build it so the 'yoke rails' that swing up and down are wider nearer the actual yoke cut-out, so that when it swings down it would be a couple inches higher (towards the shear) of the canoe, thus giving you more clearance for your head.

One thing for any kneelers that might work is to incorporate the 'Power Rocker' seat that Mad River (I think) came up with a few years ago. There was a thread on it over on Solotripping. I have some pics somewhere so maybe I'll post a few. It allows the seat to tilt down to allow for kneeling all with a smooth easy elegant design.

That would be the ultimate seat. A seat with a combo fold down yoke, integrated back rest, and a power rocker type sliding mechanism to easily move back and forth between sitting and kneeling. all weighing very little. Built out of cherry.

Randy, send me the plans when you design it! :wink

Moonman
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Glen Smith
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Post by Glen Smith »

Whether the hull is symmetrical or asymmetrical, the leading edge of the seat for a solo should be located about 6" aft of the hull's center of balance, not the center of the boat's length (they are different).

Also, keep in mind when designing a yoke or combination seat/yoke, you will want to place it so one end of the canoe is slightly heavier than the other so the canoe will tip back a bit allowing you to see where you are going. There is no rule that says that while portaging the canoe you must be facing the bow, it could just as well be the stern so keep this in mind when designing these contraptions.
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Moonman
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Post by Moonman »

okay I found the power rocker pics. These were posetd on Solotripping by 'Canoedancing'. I don't think he'll mind me re-posting them here

This is the first one - you can see the seat is mounted to wood hangers, which are in turn mounted under the inwales.

Image

the seat is mounted with two bolts. One acts as pivot attachment, the other follows a channel routed in the wood, so it can swing up and down.

Image

Image

and here is the seat swung down into the kneeling position.
Image

The idea here is that its free swinging. I'm not sure but I think your body weight, being centred closer to the back seat rail, holds the seat in the upright position when sitting. Pretty slick system all around.

Moonman.
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Patricks Dad
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Post by Patricks Dad »

Moonman, that is a pretty slick seat. The plans for the Freedom Solo do show seat placement (and a proposed placement for an assumed removable yoke). I don't have the plans here at work but could measure them and post this weekend.

lots to think about.

thanks guys.
Randy Pfeifer
(847) 341-0618
Randy.Pfeifer1@gmail.com
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Patricks Dad
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Post by Patricks Dad »

I stumbled on this RE: seat placement on the Freedom Solo 15' 3" (looking for something completely different)...
Steve Killing wrote:Hello All,

The seat I have shown has its forward edge about 10” aft of the hull midsection.

The empty boat will float a little bow down as its center of gravity is just 1/2” aft of the midsection.

Paddler and hull together should float level as the combined CG of a 175 lbs paddler and a 40 lb canoe is about over the center of buoyancy. (8.3" aft of center)

On average I count on the paddler’s center of gravity to be at about the forward edge of the seat.
Randy Pfeifer
(847) 341-0618
Randy.Pfeifer1@gmail.com
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