Hiking seats for Sailing Canoe

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Opie8man
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:55 pm

Hiking seats for Sailing Canoe

Post by Opie8man »

Here is an idea I had for adding hiking seats to a sailing canoe I am building.

First one of the things that I decided I would like was scuppered inwales. I think they look neat and have the added bonus of drainage plus lashing your gear. I am also planning on tapering them towards the ends. I decided that I should go with the largest acceptable dimensions (for strength) that will still look nice.
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I also would like to make the center thwart even with the top of the gunwales as per this post in the Bear Mountain Builders forum.
http://bearmountainboats.com/phpBB3/vie ... art#p25505

Then I wanted to attach something to expand the sitting area. At first I thought 5 inches (half the width of a normal seat) would be sufficient. Though I decided to vary the width for more stability (more on this later). I imagined a removable deck with the marrying parts covered in a thin rubber lining (to protect the varnish.
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The guiding blocks on either side of the gunwales could be rails or the occasionally block. I even considered adding a lip to go over the outwales to hook it into place. Though most of the force on the lee board will be trying to pull the seats out and down, when the leeboard is on the leeward side of the boat.

Then I needed to attach the lee board shoulder and block to this. I thought of using carriage bolts maybe even epoxying nuts into the wood of the hiking seat so that they can't get lost or fall off. Of course if I found a permanent home for the lee boards I could glue and screw these parts in place, but that would require some on the water testing to find the right position for the leeboards. Except for the shoulder and the leeboard, I would want them removable for storage purposes.
Image

Finally the design of the seats.
Image
Other than the areas that needed to be beefed up to support the leeboard hardware. It would be a relatively lightweight board, I even thought about caning it to look like a seat and to cut weight. The widest part to sit on the seat is also the optimum position to be in to exert your ballast on the boat. I also see this as a good place to attach hardware like blocks and cleats. The width and length of the hiking seats could be used to distribute forces from the leeboard across a wide section of the gunwales. Though they would be left in place for paddling they could also be stored along the sides of the inside of the canoe, lashed to the inwales, with the leeboards and shoulder plates bungeed or lashed to the hiking seats.

Let me know what you think. Though most of the questions addressed here don't cover sailing canoes, I have been reading the forums and found them full of great advice so I thought "why not?" If anyone knows another forum on the subject of sailing canoes, and that has a good following I would gladly post it there as well.
Snowman
Posts: 233
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:21 pm
Location: Gatineau, QC

Re: Hiking seats for Sailing Canoe

Post by Snowman »

Opie8man,

I don't really have comments on your hiking seats, but I am curious as to your sailing canoe design. Any details?

I had designed a sailing rig for my canoe but it got burried in numerous other life activities and projects. I have yet to build the rig. Maybe soon.

If you are looking for another site/forum on sailing canoes, try Skinny Hull (http://skinnyhull.com/forum/).

Keep us informed of your progress.



Snowman
Snowman back East
Opie8man
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:55 pm

Re: Hiking seats for Sailing Canoe

Post by Opie8man »

Snowman-

Let me know if you have any ideas for my hiking seat design. As per your request here is some info on my sailing canoe design.

Base Canoe
It is strip built, made of Western Red Cedar, using 1 1/8th in strips 3/16ths thick. It has a length of 17ft, a beam of 36", the hull is 12" deep, and it is flat bottomed without a keel.

Here is the best part, only the outside is complete. It has been fiber glassed and epoxied, while inside is still unfinished wood, and neither the gunwales nor the thwarts haven been installed. I see this as a huge advantage. I will be able to install reinforcing blocks for the rudder gudgeons, the thwarts and seats can be custom built to handle the mast and other hardware.

Building
My Dad basically has a full wood shop in his garage and has been wood working his whole life. He hasn't the faintest idea when it comes to sailing, but if you show him a picture, he can build it. I am going to work while living at home for a couple months after I graduate this summer. I figure since he is retired and I am going to be unemployed the two of us working full time together should be able to complete it in a couple of months.

Boat Purpose
The purpose of this craft would be for multiday river or lake trips camping along the way. I might take it out for some day sailing here and there to show it off or get better acquainted with the handling of the boat. I want the design to be what David Gerr calls a "passage maker" (from his book "The Nature of Boats"), something that has a high average speed across a wide spectrum of sailing conditions, instead of a racer or performance boat. I see the sails as a way to increase my range (more miles of beautiful waterways to take in), as well as provide effortless (near effortless) cruising of lakes and rivers. Every time I am paddling against a stiff wind I always think of how great it would be if I could hoist a sail and use the wind instead of fight it. If the conditions are right I would like to be able to take trips where I sail up river and then paddle down, though I don't know if this is realistic.

Sail Design
I have decided on using balanced lug sails. One of the main reasons is that they are reefable. I was really tied to the idea of a lateen sail for a long time, but they aren't reefable. The mast is a little higher than a lateen sail (about 1 ft for an equally sized lateen), but I feel like the balanced lug has more sail area higher for when the wind is light and you are trying to catch that little bit that always seems to be a bit higher than your sails. It also seem more prone to sail twist, thereby spilling wind when there is plenty of wind to catch.
Image
Here is the placement of masts and leeboards. (I haven't drawn in the hiking seats yet.)
Image

I have cross posted my hiking seat question to the "Skinny Hull" website forums.

Sincerely-

Andrew
Snowman
Posts: 233
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:21 pm
Location: Gatineau, QC

Re: Hiking seats for Sailing Canoe

Post by Snowman »

Andrew,

How did your final product turn out? Any pictures and comments on how it sails and paddles?


Snowman
Snowman back East
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Jim Dodd
Posts: 1359
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:08 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Hiking seats for Sailing Canoe

Post by Jim Dodd »

Hi Andrew
Very interesting build !

I've never sailed but always wanted to.

The seats , are they wings that attach to the gunnels? I'd think you'd need to brace them against the hull, or at least span across to the other side.
Again I have no sailing experience, but I have tipped over a lot of canoes ! I'd think you would want your weight lower in the canoe, rather than riding high on the gunnels.
Keep us posted, as this is intriguing !

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!
Opie8man
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:55 pm

Re: Hiking seats for Sailing Canoe

Post by Opie8man »

Snowman-

Haven't finished it yet. The canoe is almost complete, recently hung the seats, this Spring when it warms up I have some sanding and varnishing (well a lot of varnishing). I still have a couple components for the sailing rig to finish and I am currently learning how to sew my own sails. The sails will likely take me another year. So it might be a while before I'm sailing, but definitely be canoeing this summer. Here are some pics from last fall after I got the gunnels and decks on.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dw0jh31oycado1t/M167E7Pabm#/

Jim-

I have modified the hiking seats, they will be 5" by 36" boards with round tapers. They will look more like giant popsicle sticks than what is pictured above. They be bolted through the center thwart and blocked with wood so they don't shift on the gunnels.

To answer your question, if you sat on the hiking seats with no wind in the sails it would definitely flip the canoe. When sailing, the sails are pushed sideways by the wind and the mast acts as a giant lever, due to the tippy nature of a canoe this would also flip the canoe. Normally in a sailboat you have a wide beam, and possible a weighted center board or keel to act as ballast. Even with these things it's pretty common for sailors to "hike out" which is to lean your body outside the boat to act as ballast to right the boat. As the wind changes or your course changes you lean further in or out to adjust for the changing forces. The hiking seats will provide a place for me to rest my rear while I lean in and out to keep the boat from flipping. In light wind, or if I "reef" (decrease the sail area, thereby reducing wind forces) I'll probably be sitting low in the boat. When I want get things really moving, I'll power up the sails and transition to the hiking seats. Think of it like a windsurfer with a canoe instead of a surfboard. It will take some getting used to, and may require some minor adjustments, but that is all part of the fun!

While this system may seem like a lot of work for the relaxing paddler, I'll be able to achieve and maintain speeds unobtainable by paddle. The wind will no longer be my enemy, but my ally, propelling me across lakes and rivers. Not to mention, imagine a beautiful wooden canoe skimming across the water with hand sewn black and white sails, now that is a sight to behold. Also, when I want to relax, I'll pull down the sailing rig and be able to paddle like a regular canoe, all of the sailing gear will be able to be stowed inside the canoe.

Sincerely-

Andrew
Snowman
Posts: 233
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:21 pm
Location: Gatineau, QC

Re: Hiking seats for Sailing Canoe

Post by Snowman »

Andrew,

Thanks for the update. The build is coming along nice. Be careful about balancing paddling with building. I have way too many projects partially complete because of the very same thing...

Keep us updated.


Snowman
Snowman back East
User avatar
Jim Dodd
Posts: 1359
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:08 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Hiking seats for Sailing Canoe

Post by Jim Dodd »

Thanks for the sailing education !!!
I did read years ago, that a builder of a small sail boat, used Tyvek building wrap for an experimental sail. According to him it worked great.

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!
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