Varnishing ... to roll or not to roll

Welcome to the new Bear Mountain Builders Forum - an interactive internet service we provide to encourage communication between canoe and kayak builders
Post Reply
User avatar
Cruiser
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:21 am
Location: Bowmanville, Ontario

Varnishing ... to roll or not to roll

Post by Cruiser »

Although I do want some opinions on whether I can use a roller to put on the varnish (aided by a brush for some areas), the main question concerns timing and what gets done.

I did a search on the forums and there is some information but I still have a few questions. (Project is a Freedom Solo, Uniwales, Epifanes)

Is there any reason the canoe and trim (Note: trim for me is the uniwales and decks) can't be done at the same time?
Is it necessary to thin the first coat going over the epoxy ? (first coat on trim yes, I am planning on putting an initial coat on the trim to seal it, prior to starting on the canoe in general)

My current thinking, is to use a roller and a foam brush for application. Work out a jig ( I believe Alick posted) to allow the boat to be inverted after inside is done, to allow progression to outside coat in one go. So this basically, gets 1 complete coat on the boat (including trim) in one go. Wait till it's past the tacky stage and do another coat (courtesy of Randy). Let that dry and sand at 320 before repeating, for a total of 4 coats.

I am building decks and thwarts currently, but it's pretty close to varnish time, so any feedback would be appreciated.


Brian
User avatar
Patricks Dad
Posts: 1476
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:11 pm
Location: Warrenville, Illinois

Re: Varnishing ... to roll or not to roll

Post by Patricks Dad »

I'd suggest you put a coat of epoxy on the trim to seal it before you varnish (give it some time to cure before varnish).

As for thinning the varnish, you will likely want to thin the varnish somewhat (say 10%) to get the right viscosity for application. But you don't need to thin it from a penetration perspective because you're going over epoxy.

You referenced using Epifanes varnish. There are a couple common Epifanes gloss varnishes (one is called "Wood Finish"). Per the manufacture, It can be re-coated without sanding if recoated within 3 days. On the last boat I built, I put on 5 coats one day apart with no sanding at all. It was great. The other Epifanes varnish (called "clear varnish" I think) calls for sanding between coats but I have skipped every other coat (as you noted).

Also, consider using a flat varnish on the inside to reduce glare (if you aren't already on that path).

Application with whatever gets it on smoothly is fine. I have always used a bristle brush (and I'm not very good at it). I really need to learn to spray...

BTW, your repair job looks great!
Randy Pfeifer
(847) 341-0618
Randy.Pfeifer1@gmail.com
fonz
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:45 pm

Re: Varnishing ... to roll or not to roll

Post by fonz »

Hello Cruiser. In my opinion using a foam brush and roller is the wrong way to go. Firstly I would thin my fist coat of varnish 20 % and the second coat 10 %. Coats 3 and 4 full strength. When varnishing such a large surface it is very important to maintain a wet edge. A foam brush makes this very difficult as it does not load up very well with varnish. You will be constantly dipping and in a rush to keep a wet edge. And I'm sure you have used a roller to paint. Rolling tends to introduce far to many bubbles. And paint is by far more forgiving than varnish. Go out and purchase a high quality 3" natural bristle brush. I use a Badger brush from Lea Valley. Its made up of badger, skunk and hog hair. It costs around $50 but well worth the investment. Good Luck
User avatar
Cruiser
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:21 am
Location: Bowmanville, Ontario

Re: Varnishing ... to roll or not to roll

Post by Cruiser »

I have a deep rooted phobia of cleaning brushes, but I guess I am going to have to get over that and make a trip to Lee Valley, may peruse the catalog online first, just in case there is something else I can't live without.

Brian
Rod Tait

Re: Varnishing ... to roll or not to roll

Post by Rod Tait »

Like you I am not very good at cleaning brushes and paying the attention they need to remain in good condition. I use a foam roller all the time. The white ones that look like hot dogs are my favorite. I roll on an area and then tip off with a 3 inch foam brush to get rid of the bubbles, dragging the brush from dry to wet and into the previous tipped area by an inch or so. Rollers are best for even coats. I Can do a canoe hull in about 30 minutes (outside). Have tried the brushes, other rollers and methods, but this seems to work best for me.
User avatar
Cruiser
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:21 am
Location: Bowmanville, Ontario

Re: Varnishing ... to roll or not to roll

Post by Cruiser »

Ok, I will post a new question, since it is related to this post.

The canoe is almost ready for varnish, just need to do the final sanding. I have 2 coats of epoxy on the inside to leave the weave and surface a bit rough. Everything I have read so far says to do a rough hand sanding of the inside, to knock down any rough spots. It seems that inside and outside treatment is different, with the outside being some what more thorough. I am assuming this is primarily due to the desired final finish.

So, the question ... is the inside just a quick sanding till the rough spots are leveled? Given that on the inside the weave is visible, this would also mean that a rough sand will leave more surface unsanded than there is sanded. Will the varnish still adhere enough ?

I guess a follow up question is how much sanding between coats on the inside (outside is not an issue, it's smooth)? Again, with the rough surface, there will be a lot of unsanded surface.

Thanks

Brian
Rabbit
Posts: 121
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:20 pm
Location: Downunder

Re: Varnishing ... to roll or not to roll

Post by Rabbit »

for uneven surfaces like the inside of the hull where the weave isn't completely filled i use automotive scuff pads. they are abrasive enough to give a good key for the varnish to bond and flexible enough to get into more of the weave pattern to provide good surface aria. i think steel wool would also have a similar effect. you need to make sure that you have properly cleaned out the dust and bits of pad before doing a final clean of the surface prior to varnish.
pwstndrf
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:24 pm
Location: Saginaw, Michigan

Re: Varnishing ... to roll or not to roll

Post by pwstndrf »

This may be a little late for this post, but this a proven method I have used on my 16' Peterborough Stripper with excellent results using Epifanes High Gloss (6-8 coats).


RE: boatdesign. net, PAR, Yacht Designer/Builder, Fla. 21SE2013.

"Go over the surface with 220, then with 240, but I wouldn't go much higher as you get into polishing, instead of toothing. Roll on the varnish, across the grain, then brush it off with the grain. This should be done immediately after it's rolled, so a two man job does it best, one unskilled rolling, the other knocking it down with the grain. Don't over brush it, just move it along to remove stipple from the roller and let it flow out to self level.

Varnish is a feel thing, more so then applying a coating. It should flow uniformly and level itself out. Just a few strokes are all that's needed, in any area. Using a roller insures the varnish goes down in a uniform thickness and is far superior to a brush in this regard. Lastly, roll and brush SLOWLY, so you don't fling anything around and create more bubbles than necessary. You're not painting, you're just letting a brush softly separate the wet stuff, much like a notched trowel, so there's some place for the varnish to level into."

I underlined a few key items as I have experienced them in the past.
If working alone roll only a small section at a time, about 24" x 36", max. Also using a dry brush works better, just use the tips with a light pressure with the brush @ 45 degrees to the surface. I have also cut down the length (~3/4" lg.) of a brush's fibers to stiffen them up somewhat. A natural black brush allows you to see any loose fibers also.
For rollers I have used Mohair Blend. They are by Wooster and available at my local home decorating center, (not big box stores). They are 1 1 /4" dia x 4 1/2 Lg in a two pack for about $ 5.00.
Hope this helps someone,
phil w.
User avatar
Cruiser
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:21 am
Location: Bowmanville, Ontario

Re: Varnishing ... to roll or not to roll

Post by Cruiser »

I appreciate all the feedback and like most of my research on line there appears to be several general camps of thought on how best to apply varnish.

I have completed the inside, gunnels and decks (2 sealer coats first) with 4 coats Epifanes high gloss, finishing with a matte coat ... I am happy with the results. I have the first coat on the outside hull and that looks good as well, this is getting an exciting time, 3 more coats and I declare the hull complete, I am hoping by end of this week.

The main points I took from the posts were:
- thin the first couple coats
- bristle brush and foam roller works
- foam brush works
- good bristle brush works
- generally if you use a roller to apply, you will need to use a brush to finish
- brush on across grain, work the varnish with the grain
- finish brush from dry to wet
- work a "patch" at a time, size to comfort and conditions ( 24 x 36 is a good starting point)

What I ended up working out, that seems to fit my needs:
- thinning first coats is essential
- I am using a splash of thinner in all coats, I am holding shop temp at 72F(and a fan is moving air) and it skins pretty fast, a touch of thinner seems to work out perfect
- using a combination of 320 sandpaper and "000" steel wool to prepare surfaces between coats, steel wool is easier to use around the chine (Freedom Solo 16)
- local paint shop carries the GEN foam brushes, not turpentine (go figure) but they do have the brushes.
- I am using a 1" for trim and 4" for hulls ... I thought to try foam for the first coat on inside and make the decision on how to proceed based on results. I decided foam is working for me, so I kept using them.
- working a 24" x 36" patch is about right for me, alternating back and forth, side to side to maintain a wet edge
- there are a few other details I applied (from reading):
- filtering varnish before use
- Use a separate container to apply varnish from ... I dip from the can, not pour
- when applying, I turn off the heat and open the door, the lower temp gives varnish a little more time to flowout

So, I guess I didn't get over my brush phobia, but this appears to be working for me anyway. With any luck I will post some pics in the Freedom Solo project directory next week.


Brian
Post Reply