Is a 47 year old resin covering removable by heat?

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alick burt
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Is a 47 year old resin covering removable by heat?

Post by alick burt » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:18 pm

Hi Folks
Tomorrow a customer is going to bring me his Old sailing canoe.It has been covered with some rather coarse looking cloth and resin.All is white inside and out.The covering is at least 47 years old(that is how long he has owned the boat) and he would like it removed just on the outside so the cedar underneath can be visible again.Would this be the sort of thing that a heat gun would be able to remove? Would it have been done with epoxy originally and if not are other resins that might have been used going to be removable in the same way?
Is it possible that the covering is not resin and cloth at all and is instead canvas?If so how can I test it to see the difference and identify what is on it?
Many Thanks
Alick :thinking

sedges
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probably not epoxy

Post by sedges » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:59 pm

Alick!

The resin is probably not epoxy. The wonderful room-temperature cure epoxies that we enjoy were not available 47 years ago. The resin is probably polyester and if you sand into it a little you will smell the styrene, even on a boat that old.

People have peeled glass off with a heat gun, but in my mind it would be an experiment and the customer should understand that there is a risk of damaging the boat. A little too much heat and the glue holding the hull together can be damaged.

If it is already delaminating, that makes it easier.

Is it strip built or laminated veneers?

It would not be hard to clean it up, prime it and put a really pretty color paint on it as an alternative.

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Jim Dodd
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Re: Is a 47 year old resin covering removable by heat?

Post by Jim Dodd » Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:32 pm

Sedges is correct ! It's most likely Polyester.

If strip built, I would not hesitate in using a heat gun. I did this with a canoe for a friend.
It seemed easier, to cut strips of glass about every 6" or so. It really peeled off quite easily.
Then the surface needs to be sanded to the bare wood before reglassing with epoxy.

If it is veneer, I'd be quite hesitant !

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!

alick burt
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Re: Is a 47 year old resin covering removable by heat?

Post by alick burt » Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:15 am

Hi Sedges and Jim
Thank you for you replies I have a few pictures (see below).He dropped it and put a hole in it as you can see but would like it returned to wood if possible.It looks like 6 0unce cloth when I compare it with some I have.
I am not sure but I think it is either strips or wider boards with ribs every 6" or so.
will proceed with caution and my customer understands the pitfalls but I would just like to get as much input as I can before I start.
Thanks Again
Alick :wink
P.S I just tried a little heat on the 2"fragment that came off the hole with a shaving of timber stuck to the back of it.I was able to remove the white paint easily and the cloth underneath then appeared to develop a blue green colour but stayed stuck to the wood...Any Thoughts. :thinking
p.p.s.
I just left it in thinners for 15 minutes.the paint came off really easily but
left me with a flat black hard surface with the cloth still under it untouched so less progress than the gun.. :thinking
The Hole!
Image

hole on the inside.

Image
from a different angle
Image
close up of cloth near bow.
Image

The inside showing ribs

Image

Cheers A

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Jim Dodd
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Re: Is a 47 year old resin covering removable by heat?

Post by Jim Dodd » Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:48 am

A Challenge for sure !
The best of luck to you !
And please share your experience !

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!

sedges
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wide board canoe

Post by sedges » Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:12 pm

Alick!

What mess this canoe is! I believe you have a wide-board canoe, looks like 3 planks per side. The longitudinal battens cover the plank edges. The planks were steamed and then clinch-nailed to the ribs. This could be a very old boat. It was never meant to be fiberglassed, but was probably originally finished bright with many layers of varnish. The fiberglass was done by somebody that thought it was the answer to saving the boat when it really needed careful rebuilding.

You may find that the wood inside the heavy glass and paint is mushy.

Here is a little poster about wide-board canoes. In my opinion, the wide-board construction was an experiment that did not yield very durable canoes, but they were quick to build and cheap to make.

http://forums.wcha.org/knowledgebase/Wo ... oard+Canoe

alick burt
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Re: Is a 47 year old resin covering removable by heat?

Post by alick burt » Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:34 am

Hi Sedges
Yes I think you are right about the wide board and batten construction.I can see the tacks and the wide boards showing through were I have cleaned down to the wood.
I have discovered there are two layers of cloth and the first is coming off quite easily with the heat gun.leaving me with a second layer of cloth that seems to be covered in or stuck with something dark green in colour.It doesn't look to me as if it has varnish between this and the wood so i am guessing it has been sanded off when the glassing was done or maybe it has always been like this.I forgot my phone camera today but will take more pictures tomorrow.I think this first layer will take me at least another day but it does come off quite easily.
The wood seems sound apart from the damaged area so far...
Thanks for the link too. :tu

Hi Jim
Thanks for the luck I do like a challenge! Its often the only way to learn even though it may be that we learn not to take such jobs on. :wink
Cheers
Alick

alick burt
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Re: Is a 47 year old resin covering removable by heat?

Post by alick burt » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:52 pm

Hi Folks
Here are some pictures of progress so far.I was out of the workshop today but this is what I achieved Yesterday with heat gun and scraper.
Here is my selection of weapons
Image
I thought I had two layers of cloth to begin with but on closer inspection I think what I am left with is just a layer of green resin or possibly paint with an imprint where the cloth was stuck to it.
Here is the first bit I removed back to the wood near the damaged area.
Image
I am still curious to know if this greeny black stuff actually is paint that used to be the finished surface or has this craft always been cloth and resin covered?
It took me eight hours to get this one side cleaned off to this stage and towards the end I discovered that if I pulled on the flap of cloth/resin I could pull some bits off to clear wood.I don't think this was ever varnished unless it has been completely removed. :thinking
Image
Looking closer there are scratches on the timber surface that were under definately under the greeny black layer so the surface was roughened prior to glassing or painting?? :thinking
Image
The wide boards have been nailed on and the nail heads are rusty what treatment should I give these if I am to cover the whole in new cloth and epoxy?These planks nearer the sides look like basswood whereas the boards on the bottom look like Pine or Cedar.
Image
Another possible clue to it's origin is that I have uncovered a bit of a stem that is made from very thin laminations ( no more than 1/16th of an inch thick)
Image
If anyone has an idea about the age or origin of this boat my customer and I would be interested.I think it looks very much like a Peterborough but he says the straightness of the stems being almost vertical at the front makes this unlikely and that the radius of curve on the coaming is not right.
As I continue stripping I will keep an eye out for labels.
Cheers
Alick

alick burt
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Re: Is a 47 year old resin covering removable by heat?

Post by alick burt » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:23 pm

Hi Folks
I carried on stripping off the rest of the top layer and revealed some nasties :thinking
This one is in the bilge area and extends quite a long way along one of the planks.I think I might have to replace the whole plank but it might be easier to cut in a repair... :thinking any thoughts welcome especially when it comes to making these planks curve in section.I am guessing they were steamed originally but if the inner ones were put in before the outer planks I may struggle to fit this bit around the bilge.
Image

On the inside I can see it's worse the rib is also broken and rotted.I am beginning to wonder how I will
get the nails out to do this work especially if the ends are bent over on the inside! :thinking
Image

The original bit of damage that started the whole process is bigger than I thought too extending a long way across on the second side I have just exposed.
Image

I started removing the next layer which proved more time consuming than I thought.
Image
It took me till lunch to get this end done.
Image
More nasties were revealed like this small hole which I am thinking I might patch with an oval patch.
Image
Another thing I need advice on is how I can deal with the tack heads that seem to be on all different levels.Some are flush some are below and some stick out above the surface.I did attempt to knock one or two that stick up down but they didn't move.(I think the hull just bounced). :thinking
Some of the planking is out of level at the joins and I am wondering how to deal with this.Can I just fair down the higher areas without risk of thinning them too much.
Image
I also noticed some of the planks have fine cracks in.Big enough to trap air but not easy to fill with epoxy and sawdust filler as they are too thin to get it into.Should I perhaps do an epoxy pre coat to fill them?
If anyone can help me with these thoughts I'd be grateful.
Many Thanks
Alick :wink

Rabbit
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Re: Is a 47 year old resin covering removable by heat?

Post by Rabbit » Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:23 pm

wow that's a bit of a mess! paint can hide a multitude of sins. as far as the fine cracks go, i faced similar issues when i had to repair the damage to my hull when it and the strongback were blown over by strong winds.

i used unthickend epoxy which seeped into the cracks and stabilised the structure very nicely. during my research i also found that seeping ca into the cracks also works.

good luck!

alick burt
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Re: Is a 47 year old resin covering removable by heat?

Post by alick burt » Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:34 pm

Hi Rabbit
I won't be painting it as my customer wants a clear finish but thank you for that yes CA might be the answer for those thin cracks. :applause
Cheers
Alick

sedges
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clinch nails and a new idea

Post by sedges » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:26 pm

Alick!

I order to tighten the nails you have to have clinching iron on the inside while you tap on the outside. This will turn the nail a little bit more to tight it up. Hard to do alone. A better job for two people.

I may humbly suggest that you cover the outside with veneers after you clean off all the glass and do repairs. Thin diagonal veneers will cover all the nasty discoloration from fungus and rot. It will also strengthen the boat tremendously. It will also be pretty wood. If you have never worked with cold-molding veneers there are some good books out there to learn the process.

The link below is a thread that has a photo of ribbed canoe, sort of like a wood/canvas hull, with veneer instead of canvas. You will have to scroll down a ways to find it.

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17242

alick burt
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Re: Is a 47 year old resin covering removable by heat?

Post by alick burt » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:01 pm

Hi Sedges
Lovely idea veneering it but I don't think my customer wants to pay that much still I will ask him in case as it would look fabulous. :wink
I finally got the last bit of resin off today and began sanding.
Image

I also noticed the way one end is different to the other.One has wide boards throughout whereas the other has what looks to me like some patching done with narrower strips.
Image
when I removed the glass there was no evidence of patching which makes me question again if the hull was not glassed or not originally?Or would it have been built with this patching like repair in the original hull? :thinking
Cheers
Alick

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Cruiser
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Re: Is a 47 year old resin covering removable by heat?

Post by Cruiser » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:49 pm

Hi Alick,

That is a lot of work you have completed in a short time.

Looking at what you have uncovered ... call me crazy, but it just really has a lot of character, have you considered just doing the glass on the hull as it is?

Rather than hide all that great building history under paint or veneer ... it might be really cool to just celebrate it as a bit of history and use the epoxy/fiberglass right over the tacks and patches and weird shaped inserts ... that won't appeal to everyone, but part of the boats appeal is that construction.


Just my thoughts.


Brian

alick burt
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Re: Is a 47 year old resin covering removable by heat?

Post by alick burt » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:52 am

Hi Brian
Thank you it is good to hear that, as one constantly thinks things are going slowly as we are all our own worst critics and all that!
That is the original idea and the one I am currently sticking with.I agree with you it does show the history and character of the boat though it might take a lot of filling of cracks etc to make it work.I was quite pleased by how well the area I have sanded has come up as I was thinking the nail heads would be more uneven than they have turned out.
I will be doing some more later today so we will see how it looks as I progress.
Cheers
Alick :wink

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