Cedar Strip Repair Advice

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Torch Red Tulsan
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Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:51 pm

Cedar Strip Repair Advice

Post by Torch Red Tulsan »

After several years of dreaming of building a cedar strip canoe, I was fortunate enough to inherit one this past weekend! It been passed from person to person over the last 15+ years with each one intending to fix it up. Now it's my turn, and I REALLY want to get it back on the water. I am an absolute amateur though. I've spent the last 3 days reading the forums and watching videos to get a better understanding, but I wanted to get as much advice as possible. About the only thing I'm pretty sure on is that I'd like to use West Systems' epoxy products.

Here are the pictures of what's going on with the canoe. I'll post a list of everything going on, but I'd like to prioritize and focus on one thing at a time as it's all going to be a learning experience.

Here's the list of what I see, my best guess at how to correct it, and my best guess at the order of priority.
  • Hole in the side - Epoxy filling
  • Crack in floor - Epoxy filling
  • Delaminated fiberglass - Sand down and remove/replace fiberglass
  • Darkened wood - Rotted
  • Split inwale(?) - Epoxy
  • Weathered decking - Sand and varnish
  • No thwarts
Now for the pictures

Hole
Image
Image

Crack in floor
Image

Delaminated Fiberglass
Image

Darkened Wood
Image
Image

I have more pictures that I can share, but I'll just leave it with these for now so I don't blow up anyone's bandwidth.
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Cruiser
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Location: Bowmanville, Ontario

Re: Cedar Strip Repair Advice

Post by Cruiser »

That poor boat looks like it has taken a fair amount of abuse ... but as with all questions and posted pics, I have a few more questions:

1. Is that the original finish on the fiberglass or has some one sanded that already?
2. Where is that boat being stored (and for how long)? I am trying to determine if it has been (or is) stored outdoors.
3. Was the boat ever in routine use?
4. Has there been any work done on the hull?
5. Do you know how the damage was caused?

Just from the pictures, my opinion would be that all the physical damage is pretty straightforward to repair ... the water damage (discoloration) may or may not be fixable with a light sanding.

My real concern is that it doesn't look like the fiberglass was actually finished from the pics, that weave showing all over suggests that it was never taken past the initial epoxy application coat or possibly if it was sanded, then it was sanded too far and the weave has been exposed. If it has been (or has sat) sitting outside for a long period then the whole exterior fiberglass is likely compromised.

The fiberglass will degrade if exposed to direct sunlight, without a UV protection layer. So if that hull was sitting outside for any length of time without a good UV protection layer, that will be a big issue. If that is the case, the whole exterior fiberglass sheath may need removed and replaced ... that will take a lot of patience and sweat ... but the upside is that it would make the other repairs easier and the final product would look close to new.

I am sure there will be a few more people offering help on this, as some people do a fair amount of restoration, plus I know there are a few repair stories on the forums.


Brian
Torch Red Tulsan
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Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: Cedar Strip Repair Advice

Post by Torch Red Tulsan »

Thanks for the reply, Brian

I'll answer what I can, but all we know about the history is from the friend who gave it to me. He had it for the last 10 years and it was stored in his garage that entire time.

1. Original finish - I would only be guessing to say I believe it's the original finish. Both previous owners had aspirations of restoring it, so they 'might' have started with sanding, but I don't know
2. Storage - It's currently in my backyard for the last 2 days, but I'm about to put a tarp over it. It was stored inside for the last 10 years. Unknown before that
3. Routine use - I don't know, but not for many years if so
4. Hull work - I don't know. Anything I can look for to determine this?
5. Cause of damage - Unknown

Regarding the fiberglass ever being finished, there are large sections that look okay to my admittedly untrained eye but, given the amount of weave that is showing, I could easily believe it was never finished.

Would replacing the entire fiberglass sheath require the canoe to be remounted to molds, or will it be okay on stands?

-Chad
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Jim Dodd
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Re: Cedar Strip Repair Advice

Post by Jim Dodd »

First I'd determine if the hull was glassed with epoxy.
If so, and it looks like it was. You are in for some work, if you choose to remove it.
Polyester resin doesn't bond very well, and with a heat gun is pretty easy to remove.

You can patch all that you have posted, and get a new finish on it. It's just very hard to get it to look good, when you are done.

Me ? I'd patch, and consider painting it.

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!
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Jim Dodd
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Re: Cedar Strip Repair Advice

Post by Jim Dodd »

The closer I look, especially at the delaminations, it appears it might be Polyester resin.
If so, you should be able to score the glass, and with a heat gun, pull the glass off in strips.

It looks like you have a full length keel strip. I'd remove that also.

Lastly and very important, are the gunnels glued on or just screwed on ? If they are screwed on, it will make removal a lot easier. If they are glued on you will destroy them, and probably in either case, they will need to be replaced.
You are in for a rewarding experience !

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!
Torch Red Tulsan
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Re: Cedar Strip Repair Advice

Post by Torch Red Tulsan »

Jim Dodd wrote:The closer I look, especially at the delaminations, it appears it might be Polyester resin.
If so, you should be able to score the glass, and with a heat gun, pull the glass off in strips.

It looks like you have a full length keel strip. I'd remove that also.

Lastly and very important, are the gunnels glued on or just screwed on ? If they are screwed on, it will make removal a lot easier. If they are glued on you will destroy them, and probably in either case, they will need to be replaced.
You are in for a rewarding experience !

Jim
Thanks, Jim
How would I determine if they're epoxy or polyester?

It does have a full length brass keel strip. What's the reason for removing it?

The gunnels are screwed. I haven't checked if they're glued as well though. Are you saying I should remove them to replace the fiberglass underneath them?
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Cruiser
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Re: Cedar Strip Repair Advice

Post by Cruiser »

If you don't have a book on how to build the canoe, I would suggest a copy of canoe craft, I think it will be easier for you if you know the basics of building the boat, which should help a lot in repairing the boat (IMO).

I found a decent video from Nick Schlade for removing fiberglass, which should give you an idea of what to expect:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHNHXD-g2N0

I wouldn't start at #36 though, he uses hardwood on the kayaks and the canoe is cedar, I would start at #80 only and be careful, it sands fast.

Jim has pointed out that it is easier to work on the boat if you remove what can be removed first, that makes everything easier to access and repair as required.

The hull has 2 layers of fiberglass (inside and outside), if you remove the outer one, the inner one will maintain the shape ... so putting it back on it's stations isn't required. Also as Jim pointed out, if you remove the outer fiberglass and do the repairs, you will then need to access the condition of the hull. If all the discolouration has sanded off and you like what you see ... then you can just refiberglass and be done. If it isn't beautiful to your eye, the outside can always be painted after fiberglassing ( or tint the resin while fiberglassing).

What is clear is you will have to get into the repairs before you will be able to properly access the damage and formulate a plan of attack. The first step is likely going to be removing the delaminated parts and seeing how easy the rest can be removed (IMO). If it removes easily, the best course may be to just continue on and clear the outer hull.

Then you can address the areas that need repair, the bottom crack can likely be cleaned up and fixed with epoxy, the holes will likely need some new wood .... there is more than one way to make repairs, the issue is that sometimes you have to take it apart to figure out the best method for you.

Finally, once the repairs are complete, you can re-fiberglass the hull, turn over the boat and fix any interior damage at the repair areas ... and you guessed it, that has to be assessed after the outside is complete.

Brian
Torch Red Tulsan
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Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: Cedar Strip Repair Advice

Post by Torch Red Tulsan »

My copy of Canoecraft should be here Friday and, yesterday, I watched the Nick Offerman tutorial video about the book (both from Bear Mountain) so I could get a better understanding of their construction.

I'll watch the Nick Schlade video, then get started on the delaminated areas.

My first order of business is trying to determine a work space that keeps it protected from the sun
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Cruiser
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Re: Cedar Strip Repair Advice

Post by Cruiser »

It seems daunting, but it is just a lot of single steps to get to where you want to go. So, deep breath, patience and 1 step at a time ... the hardest part is literally deciding to start.

After that, it just research the step, plan, execute, repeat. Plus you have a whole forum of people looking over your shoulder ... just waiting to nag lol.


Brian
Torch Red Tulsan
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Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: Cedar Strip Repair Advice

Post by Torch Red Tulsan »

Cruiser wrote:It seems daunting, but it is just a lot of single steps to get to where you want to go. So, deep breath, patience and 1 step at a time ... the hardest part is literally deciding to start.

After that, it just research the step, plan, execute, repeat. Plus you have a whole forum of people looking over your shoulder ... just waiting to nag lol.


Brian
I just watched the fiberglass stripping video and feel a lot more comfortable diving in. I searched and searched for something like that, but couldn't find anything useful. Thank you!

I'll make sure to post updates to keep the nagging flowing
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Jim Dodd
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Re: Cedar Strip Repair Advice

Post by Jim Dodd »

Determining whether it's polyester resin or epoxy.

I'd start by using my sniffer (nose) Polyester should still have an offensive plastic smell. Especially when warmed up. Polyester will peel off easily, epoxy, not so easy.

Looking at your pics, even if it was epoxy, it's not in very good shape.

Brian has given some good tips !

Let us know which it is, if you can.

Polyester was THE resin to use, up until the early to mid 90s. Before that, it's a good chance it's Polyester.

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!
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