Cove side up ... or down?

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GraMac
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Cove side up ... or down?

Post by GraMac » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:16 am

Ok just about to start first build so forgive the nativity of the question. Is there a right or wrong way: Cove side up or should it be cove side down?
I am planning to build staple-less.
Please advise.
Thank you..
Graham

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Cruiser
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Re: Cove side up ... or down?

Post by Cruiser » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:10 am

Builders use either way ... I also build stapleless and always use cove up, just seems the best way for me.

There are a couple of current stapleless builds on this forum if you have any questions.


Brian

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Re: Cove side up ... or down?

Post by Cruiser » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:15 am

An after thought.

One of the challenges of building stapleless is how to hold the strips in place. Straps around the mold stations to keep the strips tight against them is one thing I do ... to keep the strips tight together, I usually wrap 3/16" shock around the strip stack all the way down the boat (with 1/4" dowel on the top strip for protection.

One of the posters had a new idea for clamping the strips to each other that may be of interest to you

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4773

I will probably make up a few for my next build .. to see how I like them

Brian

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Jim Dodd
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Re: Cove side up ... or down?

Post by Jim Dodd » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:32 pm

The clamps work great !
Yes ! Cove up ! As a first timer, cove up ! As an Old timer, I still go cove up !

There are some experienced builders that go Bead up. The trick is the Clamping system.

Oh ! Absolutely Nothing wrong with building with Staples. Unless you have a LOT of time to waste !

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!

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Cruiser
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Re: Cove side up ... or down?

Post by Cruiser » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:21 pm

Jim, I actually broke down the approximate time requirements of staple vs stapleless building and I don't think the difference qualifies as a "LOT" all capitalized. In the context of the stripping portion it takes more time ... no argument, but it is still not that much more time. By the time you put the staples in and take the staples out and fill or don't fill the holes ..... just really not enough difference for me to pick based on time. In the context of the "build" you may be talking a couple of percent more time, I can live with that.

The big difference to me is the aesthetics of the final product, some people can see the holes and that matters to them (me), some people can't (or don't mind) seeing the final holes ... so they can pick either and be happy.

It is a little more challenging to build stapleless ... but when you think about it, if we wanted easy, we would just go buy one. Long live challenges.

Brian

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Jim Dodd
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Re: Cove side up ... or down?

Post by Jim Dodd » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:04 pm

Hi Brian

Oh I can see we need a Race ! Ha !
A Strippers Race ! Ha !

Time is just one issue in the Stapleless vs Staples debate ! The amount of work and expense involved with the clamping system, vs a staple gun, is another.
For a Beginner, he can easily get a hull together, with a staplegun, without dealing with spring clamps, a whole array of brackets and bungees !

But to me, the real issue, is keeping the strips, especially a strip with a little stress on it, On the Forms ! True to the design.
Bungee cords, wedges, especially for a Beginner, can be daunting !

Here's the Staple puller Nick Schade, recommends in his book. One of the best $8 investment I ever made for a tool !
Image


Not driving staples in deep, makes pulling them a cinch. and leaves no marks.
I'm happy with Elmers glue to fill holes.
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!

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Cruiser
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Re: Cove side up ... or down?

Post by Cruiser » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:00 pm

As I said Jim, the big difference for me is the aesthetics ... if you can't get past all the staple holes then stapled is a no-go from the start. I agree stapled is an easier first build, but some of us are gluttons for punishment, my first build was stapleless and i just can't bring myself to the church of the holy boat.

Brian

GraMac
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Re: Cove side up ... or down?

Post by GraMac » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:52 am

Many thanks all.

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themrbruceguy
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Re: Cove side up ... or down?

Post by themrbruceguy » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:41 pm

Hey Graham! Also a first time builder here, but just thought I'd share an interesting video by Ted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsTm-CbiBoA

I'm doing bead up due to his feedback, but I may be getting myself into trouble! Who knows! haha

Good luck on your build!

~ Jake

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Re: Cove side up ... or down?

Post by Snowman » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:58 pm

Hi Graham,

Although I don't have buckets of experience, I have built with both cove up and cove down and I prefer cove down. I found it easier to clamp at each station, without having to worry about damaging the cove edges (as mentioned in Ted's video (linked by Jake).

I also employed the method described by Glen Smith (The Master) to hold my strips while laying the glue in the cove. You can see Glen's method in the following post:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2969&hilit=+cove+up+

It is real easy to get an even application of glue, as there is nothing to obstruct your applicator bottle.

Ted also uses the holder to lay his glue in his video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tReeuX-fDYQ

I don't use the syringe as in the video (too much messing about). I use a hair colour applicator bottle with a straight tip, not a slant tip as shown in this link below (I did not quickly find a straight tip link on the web). Look for one with a fine and long tip:

https://www.amazon.com/Soft-Style-Appli ... B001MP0QEW

Other things that are noteworthy about the method I use:

a. I prefer staple-less, using L-shaped pieces of plywood clamped to the station molds, with a wedge of bead/cove cedar strip wedged between the plywood bracket (clamped on the station mold) and the newly layed strip. See P.125 of Canoecraft.

b. this method does not lend itself to a high production rate (never more than two strips per side port/starboard, per night). This suited my needs (base on how many hours I have in a day).

c. I abandon staples that I tried on my first build (sorry Jim & Brian - I am weighing in on your staple banter). The a main reason that I went away from staples was that I found that once you got to the turn of the bilge the strips needed more authority to make them go where you needed them to fit nicely, with no gaps. I had to use clamps/wedges to augment on several of the planks.

It sounds like you have already decided to do cove down (or bead up, as you have stated). I recommend that you work in Glen's holders (in the link above) to lay your glue.

What are you building? Keep us posted on your progress!
Snowman back East

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Jim Dodd
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Re: Cove side up ... or down?

Post by Jim Dodd » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:09 pm

I fully understand the cove down method ! And see the benefits.

How do you handle the fragile coves, when it comes time fill in the last side of the football ? Do you break any of the cove edges ?

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!

Snowman
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Re: Cove side up ... or down?

Post by Snowman » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:24 pm

Yes, this does part get interesting. I was successful at pre-gluing the last 2-4 pieces (depending on how thick the last strip is) in the form of the football (but not gluing them to the football or centre line) and then gluing them into the football/centre line once the lay-up had dried/cured.
Snowman back East

GraMac
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Re: Cove side up ... or down?

Post by GraMac » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:09 am

Good morning all and thank you all for the wealth of information you have kindly passed on.
Building the 16 cottage cruiser.
Progress so far:
Have finally managed to clear and re floor garage - this may not sound like much but clearing out after 2 kids have left home is no mean feet! (How many bicycles does one kid need??)
Strong back has been built and in place.
Plans are about to be transferred from master plan to stiff card.

Based on suggestions here looks like I will be going; cove down, bead up, to protect them little edges. Using a holder to hold the strip to apply the glue first then do the flip over and put in place.
Slow and steady.
Graham - UK.

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Cruiser
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Re: Cove side up ... or down?

Post by Cruiser » Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:15 am

Hi Graham,

Getting the shop setup initially is a lot of work .... as you say, just keep at it ... you will be laying strips before you know it and that is a bit of a mystical time .... the stripping brings the whole thing into perspective that you are actually building something that you will be riding in ... on the water ...

Enjoy your build, and keep updating us please.

Brian

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Jim Dodd
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Re: Cove side up ... or down?

Post by Jim Dodd » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:15 am

Yes !!
Please share your experiences in the building process !
That's what makes this Site interesting !!

Good luck !

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!

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