Any thoughts
Oiling trim
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Dave Harman
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:05 pm
- Location: Auburn Ont.
- Contact:
Oiling trim
I'm ready to oil the trim on my Osprey,just can,t decide weather to use linseed oil that I use on my Kipawa or to try tung oil lthis time around..
Any thoughts
Any thoughts
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Todd Bradshaw
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 8:16 pm
Tung oil, or better yet, a tung oil based product like Watco Oil doesn't eventually turn black the way linseed oil often does. It also keeps water out better. Deks Olje #1 is also excellent and gives a better initial buildup than the others for more protection while the boat is still fairly new. The Forest Products Lab did some research on the effectiveness of linseed oil a while back and the results of their tests weren't very good. It tended to encourage fungus growth and in some cases even caused the wood to absorb water, rather than repel it. Save your linseed oil for oil painting. Use oil made for boats on your canoes.
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Erik, Belgium
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 5:31 am
- Location: Gierle, Belgium
- Contact:
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Chuck in Pa
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 4:51 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
- Contact:
Linseed Oil
:shockedTodd Bradshaw wrote: Save your linseed oil for oil painting. Use oil made for boats on your canoes.
Whoa, Whoa, I take offense at that. Maybe linseed oil is best, maybe not, I don't really know. But they've been using Linseed oil on wood boats for many more years than Watco Danish oil has even existed. I know they use it extensively on the Gazela, a three masted barkentine in Philadelphia, on all spars and much of the exposed wood. That boat never goes inside, so it better protect the wood. I even think it may have been used for boats long before it was discovered that you use it for paintings (but don't quote me on that.)
I'm just saying, don't diss my linseed oil.
-Chuck
Dave, this was posted earlier;
http://www.bearmountainboats.com/phpbb2 ... .php?t=611
May be of interest.
Doug
http://www.bearmountainboats.com/phpbb2 ... .php?t=611
May be of interest.
Doug
"Some people hear the song in the quiet mist of a cold morning..... But for other people the song is loudest in the evening when they are sitting in front of a tent, basking in the camp fire's warmth. This is when I hear it loudest ...." BM
I came across this in my travels;
(though I've not tried it)
a three part mixture.
1/3 spar varnish gloss or semi ( I prefer semi and do not like the candy look)
1/3 mineral spirits
1/3 boiled raw linseed oil
or you can use a 1/3 tung in there as a substitute for linseed oil.
mix and store in a mason jar. no need to mix alot.
don't slop any around the lid. It welds the lid shut
put your used small piece of cloth in another mason jar between coats it will remain fresh for the next use, and is less combustable in the jar.
Apply with a soft lint free cloth. Allow 24 hrs between coats. use liberon steel wool to smooth out after 2 coats. liberon is oil free and can be purchased at lee valley. All other steel wool has an oil base in it, that is why you get what they call fisheyes in the varnish process.
I prefer to leave the grip natural so the paddle breaths out the end grain.
(though I've not tried it)
a three part mixture.
1/3 spar varnish gloss or semi ( I prefer semi and do not like the candy look)
1/3 mineral spirits
1/3 boiled raw linseed oil
or you can use a 1/3 tung in there as a substitute for linseed oil.
mix and store in a mason jar. no need to mix alot.
don't slop any around the lid. It welds the lid shut
put your used small piece of cloth in another mason jar between coats it will remain fresh for the next use, and is less combustable in the jar.
Apply with a soft lint free cloth. Allow 24 hrs between coats. use liberon steel wool to smooth out after 2 coats. liberon is oil free and can be purchased at lee valley. All other steel wool has an oil base in it, that is why you get what they call fisheyes in the varnish process.
I prefer to leave the grip natural so the paddle breaths out the end grain.
"Some people hear the song in the quiet mist of a cold morning..... But for other people the song is loudest in the evening when they are sitting in front of a tent, basking in the camp fire's warmth. This is when I hear it loudest ...." BM
This whole business of wood finishing oils is laced with misinformation, misconception, misperception, and personal preference. To make it worse, most of this is intentionally caused by the finish makers themselves, whether rightly or wrongly by keeping their ingredient lists so secret. As a semi-pro woodworker, I have tried to learn as much as possible about oils as well as using them on almost a daily basis, in form or another. I am certainly no expert, but would like to give the following explanations hoping it adds some clarification, at least to some of the terms.
Linseed oil and tung oil are the most common oils used in making finishes. There are other oils, such as walnut oil and mineral oil, etc, but they do not cure or harden so aren't relevant to this discussion. With the exception of purely "plastic" finishes and waterborne finishes, one or both of these oils is probably in all the rest. Linseed oil is the most common because it is the least expensive of the two and is in many oil finishes, including many varnishes. Tung oil is in some varnishes and is more common in exterior varnishes because it is tougher than linseed oil in sunlight and water exposure.
Linseed oil can be purchased both in raw and boiled form. The raw oil is cheap but takes a long time to cure, a week or more at room temperature. Boiled linseed oil cures much faster and thoroughly, but even that is fairly slow, 8-24 hours, as compared to a varnish. Although called boiled, most modern boiled linseed oils are actually not physically boiled anymore, they have chemical driers added instead. Linseed oil doesn't cure hard in the sense that varnish does, it is more like a firm rubber when cured. It can be burnished to a smooth matte sheen once cured. None of the pure oil finishes are waterproof, just water resistant. Linseed oil is not as water resistant as tung oil. Linseed oil is also a darker amber color and continues to darken with age. While this doesn't much matter on darker woods, it can make very light colored woods very yellow which often is not a very pleasing affect.
Tung oil can be purchased both as a raw pure oil or with driers added to speed up the cure. The raw oil is normally not available in stores, but is available from woodworking sources. Tung oil cures harder(but still like a hard rubber), lighter colored, and much more water resistant than linseed oil. However, it does cure a little slower than linseed. It also penetrates more unevenly than linseed and takes more coats to get an even sheen. It also tends to dry white if left in puddles on the wood, so the excess must be wiped away more thoroughly. For woodworkers, it is the choice of oil on light colored woods that will be finished with its natural color, such as maple. It is also the choice for outdoor exposure because of its higher water resistance.
Neither linseed nor tung oil can be considered a hard durable finish when it comes to scratch/abrasion resistance. Both require regular maintenance, although that can be said for most any finish when exposed to sun and weather.
Both oils soak into the wood, in some cases quite deeply. Both are often used to "pop" the grain of the wood before other more durable finishes are added over the top. Todd is probably quite correct in noting that linseed oil is less fungal resistant than tung oil, although I am unfamiliar with the study. The effectiveness of either oil is really going to depend on whether the wood is allowed to remain "wet" long enough for fungi to take hold and grow. Any mushroom hunter will tell you that there are many fewer mushrooms in standing dead trees then there are in trees laying on the ground, simply because the standing tree loses its moisture many times faster than the one in contact with the ground.
As for the finishes called Danish Oil, Tung Oil, and various other oil finishes, confusion reigns supreme. As I stated earlier, much of this is the manufacturers fault.
Danish Oil finishes are actually what Doug described, a blend of either linseed or tung oil or both, one or more resins(like the ones you find in varnish and polyurethane finishes), and a solvent. These finishes are more accurately called either polymerized oil finishes or wiping varnishes, depending on the formula, but most fall into the wiping varnish category. The resins are added to allow a harder surface build as well as being more water resistant than pure oils. They also tend to cure faster. The oil used can be either linseed or tung, or both. This category includes Watco Danish Oil, Deft Danish Oil, Valspar Val-Oil, etc. It also includes many Tung Oil Finishes, but I discuss those in the next paragraph. I will correct Todd on Watco Oil, it contains linseed oil not tung oil. The added durability of Watco is a result of the resins not tung oil. This misconception is very common though. The only reason I know it is that I wanted to find out which oil was in Watco and the company is not very forthcoming about their formula, so I lied a little and told them I was allergic to tung oil. Their response was that there was no tung oil in their Danish Oil. This was about 15 years ago, it may have changed. I also know that Watco has an exterior oil finish and this could contain tung oil, which would make sense. Perhaps it is time for another little white lie.
Tung Oil Finishes are also wiping varnishes like the Danish Oils above, but are "supposed" to contain tung oil as the main ingredient. Some Tung Oil finishes do not contain tung oil. The reason for this misinformation is that Tung Oil Finish has come to mean just about any oil finish that is rubbed into the wood, and the misconception only helps some companies' sales so the term isn't standardized. I have read several times that Formby's Tung Oil Finish does not contain tung oil, and this was from very respected sources. I do know that Minwax Tung Oil Finish does contain tung oil as the main ingredient and the price reflects it. It is more expensive than other oil finishes.
Both the linseed and tung oil wiping varnishes are much better than using the pure oils. They dry harder with more surface protection from scratches/abrasions and they are more water resistant. They also generally cure quicker. Because the resins add the great majority of the water-resistance properties, the difference between linseed and tung oil is less important in this type finish from this aspect. However, the yellowing problem with linseed is still a problem on very light-colored woods if a person wants that wood to stay as light as possible. In that case, a tung oil viping varnish is the better choice. Todd's point of fungal growth is also an important consideration in choosing tung over linseed, particularly if you like to paddle more than you like to maintain your equipment. Of course, I know we all do the regular maintenance religiously!
By the way, although linseed and tung oils have very distinctive odors that are very different and can be easily recognized in the pure oil finishes, these odors are disguised in any finish, such as the Danish and Tung Oil Finishes as well as varnishes, by the presence of the driers, solvents, and resins. So, except for the pure oils, it is impossible to tell from smell which oil is present.
Linseed oil and tung oil are the most common oils used in making finishes. There are other oils, such as walnut oil and mineral oil, etc, but they do not cure or harden so aren't relevant to this discussion. With the exception of purely "plastic" finishes and waterborne finishes, one or both of these oils is probably in all the rest. Linseed oil is the most common because it is the least expensive of the two and is in many oil finishes, including many varnishes. Tung oil is in some varnishes and is more common in exterior varnishes because it is tougher than linseed oil in sunlight and water exposure.
Linseed oil can be purchased both in raw and boiled form. The raw oil is cheap but takes a long time to cure, a week or more at room temperature. Boiled linseed oil cures much faster and thoroughly, but even that is fairly slow, 8-24 hours, as compared to a varnish. Although called boiled, most modern boiled linseed oils are actually not physically boiled anymore, they have chemical driers added instead. Linseed oil doesn't cure hard in the sense that varnish does, it is more like a firm rubber when cured. It can be burnished to a smooth matte sheen once cured. None of the pure oil finishes are waterproof, just water resistant. Linseed oil is not as water resistant as tung oil. Linseed oil is also a darker amber color and continues to darken with age. While this doesn't much matter on darker woods, it can make very light colored woods very yellow which often is not a very pleasing affect.
Tung oil can be purchased both as a raw pure oil or with driers added to speed up the cure. The raw oil is normally not available in stores, but is available from woodworking sources. Tung oil cures harder(but still like a hard rubber), lighter colored, and much more water resistant than linseed oil. However, it does cure a little slower than linseed. It also penetrates more unevenly than linseed and takes more coats to get an even sheen. It also tends to dry white if left in puddles on the wood, so the excess must be wiped away more thoroughly. For woodworkers, it is the choice of oil on light colored woods that will be finished with its natural color, such as maple. It is also the choice for outdoor exposure because of its higher water resistance.
Neither linseed nor tung oil can be considered a hard durable finish when it comes to scratch/abrasion resistance. Both require regular maintenance, although that can be said for most any finish when exposed to sun and weather.
Both oils soak into the wood, in some cases quite deeply. Both are often used to "pop" the grain of the wood before other more durable finishes are added over the top. Todd is probably quite correct in noting that linseed oil is less fungal resistant than tung oil, although I am unfamiliar with the study. The effectiveness of either oil is really going to depend on whether the wood is allowed to remain "wet" long enough for fungi to take hold and grow. Any mushroom hunter will tell you that there are many fewer mushrooms in standing dead trees then there are in trees laying on the ground, simply because the standing tree loses its moisture many times faster than the one in contact with the ground.
As for the finishes called Danish Oil, Tung Oil, and various other oil finishes, confusion reigns supreme. As I stated earlier, much of this is the manufacturers fault.
Danish Oil finishes are actually what Doug described, a blend of either linseed or tung oil or both, one or more resins(like the ones you find in varnish and polyurethane finishes), and a solvent. These finishes are more accurately called either polymerized oil finishes or wiping varnishes, depending on the formula, but most fall into the wiping varnish category. The resins are added to allow a harder surface build as well as being more water resistant than pure oils. They also tend to cure faster. The oil used can be either linseed or tung, or both. This category includes Watco Danish Oil, Deft Danish Oil, Valspar Val-Oil, etc. It also includes many Tung Oil Finishes, but I discuss those in the next paragraph. I will correct Todd on Watco Oil, it contains linseed oil not tung oil. The added durability of Watco is a result of the resins not tung oil. This misconception is very common though. The only reason I know it is that I wanted to find out which oil was in Watco and the company is not very forthcoming about their formula, so I lied a little and told them I was allergic to tung oil. Their response was that there was no tung oil in their Danish Oil. This was about 15 years ago, it may have changed. I also know that Watco has an exterior oil finish and this could contain tung oil, which would make sense. Perhaps it is time for another little white lie.
Tung Oil Finishes are also wiping varnishes like the Danish Oils above, but are "supposed" to contain tung oil as the main ingredient. Some Tung Oil finishes do not contain tung oil. The reason for this misinformation is that Tung Oil Finish has come to mean just about any oil finish that is rubbed into the wood, and the misconception only helps some companies' sales so the term isn't standardized. I have read several times that Formby's Tung Oil Finish does not contain tung oil, and this was from very respected sources. I do know that Minwax Tung Oil Finish does contain tung oil as the main ingredient and the price reflects it. It is more expensive than other oil finishes.
Both the linseed and tung oil wiping varnishes are much better than using the pure oils. They dry harder with more surface protection from scratches/abrasions and they are more water resistant. They also generally cure quicker. Because the resins add the great majority of the water-resistance properties, the difference between linseed and tung oil is less important in this type finish from this aspect. However, the yellowing problem with linseed is still a problem on very light-colored woods if a person wants that wood to stay as light as possible. In that case, a tung oil viping varnish is the better choice. Todd's point of fungal growth is also an important consideration in choosing tung over linseed, particularly if you like to paddle more than you like to maintain your equipment. Of course, I know we all do the regular maintenance religiously!
By the way, although linseed and tung oils have very distinctive odors that are very different and can be easily recognized in the pure oil finishes, these odors are disguised in any finish, such as the Danish and Tung Oil Finishes as well as varnishes, by the presence of the driers, solvents, and resins. So, except for the pure oils, it is impossible to tell from smell which oil is present.
