Owners of 16 Foot Redbirds
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Bernie in Illinois
Owners of 16 Foot Redbirds
Has anyone finished building a short version of the Redbird? I know that several of you were in process. How were the results? Apparently Rob's 15 year old son has a real problem with his 10 footer, (see Help! Question about adding stability!). While a 7'6" reduction is unreasonably ambitious, what happens if only 1'6"?
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Glen Smith
- Posts: 3719
- Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 9:08 am
- Location: Baie-St-Paul, Quebec, Canada
Shortened Redbird
Hi Bernie, in Ted's book "Canoecraft" revised and expanded edition on page 11 Ted mentions that the boat being built in the book photos is a 16 foot Redbird. 
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Bernie in Illinois
I haven't paddled a Redbird, but from earlier comments here and there, the design feels tippy to some, with the initial stability poor, and secondary stabilty being good (stable paddled heeled over or in waves).
Shortening the hull should allow the canoe to turn more easily, but track straight line less well. With less volume it'll also ride more deeply in the water with a higher waterline... so intial stability might be improved somewhat, since the shortened version will behave as if it's more heavily loaded, all else being equal. There will be less volume to ride over waves, so it may be a wetter boat. But easier to paddle, since total submerged area is less.
With increasingly shorter versions, secondary stability might suffer since there will be less and less total volume across the beam to provide lateral floatation to dampen out movements by the occupants, and that from waves and rough water. I'd suspect that's the problem with the ten-foot boat, secondary stability just isn't there enough to allow the paddler to stay in the boat.
All IMHO above, someone with some professional design expertise might be able to define things more precisely, and when shortening will compromise things too much.
Good luck - rather than risking poorer performance by changing the design, why not pick another that's smaller and designed precisely for that size... the Huron Cruiser, for instance.
Shortening the hull should allow the canoe to turn more easily, but track straight line less well. With less volume it'll also ride more deeply in the water with a higher waterline... so intial stability might be improved somewhat, since the shortened version will behave as if it's more heavily loaded, all else being equal. There will be less volume to ride over waves, so it may be a wetter boat. But easier to paddle, since total submerged area is less.
With increasingly shorter versions, secondary stability might suffer since there will be less and less total volume across the beam to provide lateral floatation to dampen out movements by the occupants, and that from waves and rough water. I'd suspect that's the problem with the ten-foot boat, secondary stability just isn't there enough to allow the paddler to stay in the boat.
All IMHO above, someone with some professional design expertise might be able to define things more precisely, and when shortening will compromise things too much.
Good luck - rather than risking poorer performance by changing the design, why not pick another that's smaller and designed precisely for that size... the Huron Cruiser, for instance.
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Glen Smith
- Posts: 3719
- Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 9:08 am
- Location: Baie-St-Paul, Quebec, Canada
Typos
Hi Bernie, there could be a typo in there somewhere. Ted says that it is a 16 footer but then he supposedly builds a 16 foot strongback and the stem forms are sticking out at the ends making the Redbird being built look more like a 17' 7.5"! He could have scaled down the boat by spacing the forms at about 11" but if that is the case then the strongback is not 16' long. Anyway, I believe the Redbird can be succesfully scaled down to 16' without too much impact. Just don't expect it to handle and carry the same load as the original size.
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Bernie in Illinois
Hey guys,
Sometime ago, I came to the conclusion that the Redbird, although a very nice boat, was not the ideal one for me. My wife is already concerned about its tippyness. Although I am already invested, molds made etc., it is not too late for me to make a change. The consencus of opinions from this forum seems to lean toward building as designed, then see how I like it. Should I not like it, then build another. Sounds like too much work for me. One boat is enough, there are other types of projects on my agenda.
Rick, what you said about stability and load factor makes sense. If the 16 foot version was known to work well, then I think I would build that. At this point, I have not found anybody with a Redbird, much less a 16 footer. Regarding the waterline issue, I probably would add an extra strip to keep it dry. If I switch design, it would likely be to the Bob's Special.
Sometime ago, I came to the conclusion that the Redbird, although a very nice boat, was not the ideal one for me. My wife is already concerned about its tippyness. Although I am already invested, molds made etc., it is not too late for me to make a change. The consencus of opinions from this forum seems to lean toward building as designed, then see how I like it. Should I not like it, then build another. Sounds like too much work for me. One boat is enough, there are other types of projects on my agenda.
Rick, what you said about stability and load factor makes sense. If the 16 foot version was known to work well, then I think I would build that. At this point, I have not found anybody with a Redbird, much less a 16 footer. Regarding the waterline issue, I probably would add an extra strip to keep it dry. If I switch design, it would likely be to the Bob's Special.
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Bill from Louisiana
Hello Bernie,
Just finished my full sized Redbird and launchd her last week. I did not experience any tipsyness. She handled like a dream. The only thing I did notice was it took a little more room to turn. Sthe tracks just great. I think someitmes other peoples opinion of what is tipsy is just that, opinons. Which are good to have, but my "opinion" is that you will be pleased with the Redbird. Tell you wife not to worry.
Just finished my full sized Redbird and launchd her last week. I did not experience any tipsyness. She handled like a dream. The only thing I did notice was it took a little more room to turn. Sthe tracks just great. I think someitmes other peoples opinion of what is tipsy is just that, opinons. Which are good to have, but my "opinion" is that you will be pleased with the Redbird. Tell you wife not to worry.
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Dean in Eureka, CA
- Posts: 267
- Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 10:23 am
- Location: Eureka, CA
Hey Bernie,
I'm not going to go on and on here trying to sway you. (already did that)
It would be nice to see what Ted or Steve have to say about this matter.
Ted designed the Redbird and Steve refaired it. I'm sure that they could give you some good information as to what shortening it would do.
How about it Ted or Steve?
Maybe we could get Joan to ask Ted for you.
I'm not going to go on and on here trying to sway you. (already did that)
It would be nice to see what Ted or Steve have to say about this matter.
Ted designed the Redbird and Steve refaired it. I'm sure that they could give you some good information as to what shortening it would do.
How about it Ted or Steve?
Maybe we could get Joan to ask Ted for you.
Everything will be OK[img::]http://www.mikenchell.com/forums/images ... uryi3b.gif[/img]
Dean in Eureka, CA
Dean in Eureka, CA
Hi, Bernie,
Here's what Steve Killing has to say about stability - the Redbird is rated at 92, same as the Huron Cruiser, with a lower number indicating less stability and comfort.
http://www.bearmountainboats.com/canoetechnical.htm
My opinion FWIW, would be to test-paddle some designs if the decision to commit hasn't been made yet - comparing higher performance hulls tending towards a narrow beam and round bottom, against more beamy hulls with flatter bottoms. Here in Ontario, the Freedom 17, Bob's Special, and various Prospectors are available fo test paddle and this might help in deciding where in the comfort vs performance tradeoff the best choice is.
Having novice paddlers also using the boat could mean that a more stable, comfortable design might be the best all-round choice, since an expert can always paddle stable canoes, but novices might not be able to deal with high-performance designs.The more versatile boats might include the Bob's Special, Ranger and Prospector.
Hope this helps before you commit the time and energy to building, good luck.
Here's what Steve Killing has to say about stability - the Redbird is rated at 92, same as the Huron Cruiser, with a lower number indicating less stability and comfort.
A Stability factor of 111 is comfortable for all novices - the Freedom 17'9
A satiability of 100 is comfortable for most paddlers - the Bob Special is at 100
Some novices will feel a boat at 98 to be initially tender, but after a few paddles will be quite comfortable - the Freedom 17
The Huron Cruiser at 92 is not comfortable for most novices
Hiawatha at 88 is a challenging boat for some canoeists to paddle.
The marathon at 49 is well beyond my skill level.
http://www.bearmountainboats.com/canoetechnical.htm
My opinion FWIW, would be to test-paddle some designs if the decision to commit hasn't been made yet - comparing higher performance hulls tending towards a narrow beam and round bottom, against more beamy hulls with flatter bottoms. Here in Ontario, the Freedom 17, Bob's Special, and various Prospectors are available fo test paddle and this might help in deciding where in the comfort vs performance tradeoff the best choice is.
Having novice paddlers also using the boat could mean that a more stable, comfortable design might be the best all-round choice, since an expert can always paddle stable canoes, but novices might not be able to deal with high-performance designs.The more versatile boats might include the Bob's Special, Ranger and Prospector.
Hope this helps before you commit the time and energy to building, good luck.
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Bernie in Illinois
Rick, My feelings exactly. The Bob Special is the better boat for my particular needs. I was hoping to find someone with a Redbird in the Illinois/Indiana/Wisconsin area; Louisiana or Ontario being a bit far to go. It looks like I'll be remaking my molds. Thanks for your input everyone, I'd rather be safe than sorry. And who knows, may be I'll end up building two boats after all.