17' 0" Freedom

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Jim Dodd
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Location: Iowa

Re: 17' 0" Freedom

Post by Jim Dodd » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:37 am

Great job Randy !

I've been out of town, so missed a lot.

I like the seat mounting ! plenty adequate !

I don't know if you've seen any of Alan's work ? He lives a little over an hour away from me, and so we've hooked up as builders. Alan is quite computer Savy, and has designed his canoes, using Delftship.
He has experience in composite, hull and gunnel construction. His insight might be of help!

http://www.canoetripping.net/forums/for ... vlar-build

http://www.canoetripping.net/forums/for ... rens-build

Weight is always a challenge. I'm sure you can lighten the gunnels, and maybe reduce the foam going up the sides. Beings you fasten the seats to the hull, all the foam going up to the shear is not neccessary ???

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!

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Jim Dodd
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Location: Iowa

Re: 17' 0" Freedom

Post by Jim Dodd » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:43 am

Another composite builder that you may learn from.

http://www.canoetripping.net/forums/for ... -copy-kite

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!

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Patricks Dad
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Location: Warrenville, Illinois

Re: 17' 0" Freedom

Post by Patricks Dad » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:46 am

Thanks Jim, I had seen the first two threads but not the last one you posted. That third one used the same foam I'm using. I used 3/8" thick 4 lb/CF foam for the first build. The 2nd hull just got a layer of 1/8" foam yesterday (3 lb/CF). The problem with this foam is that is sucks up the epoxy as quickly as cedar does. The foam weighed just over a pound but the hull gained over 2 lb. I was planning on adding a 2nd layer of the 1/8" foam. I'm considering using contact cement to reduce the epoxy absorption problem but it's not that light either...

I am skipping the ribs up the side on this one (but used the full width of the foam in the football area so it goes about half way around the bilge (32"). That should make adding the final internal layer go on easier. I'm using 2.2 Oz Kevlar for that layer.

I was thinking along the same lines for gunwales as the 3rd thread so I'll read it more carefully.


Thanks for posting.
Randy Pfeifer
(847) 341-0618
Randy.Pfeifer1@gmail.com

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Patricks Dad
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Re: 17' 0" Freedom

Post by Patricks Dad » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:26 pm

Here's a peak at the 2nd one. Two layers of 1/8" thick foam with no ribs and 2.2 Oz Kevlar inside.

Image
Randy Pfeifer
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Randy.Pfeifer1@gmail.com

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Patricks Dad
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Re: 17' 0" Freedom

Post by Patricks Dad » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:34 pm

I decided to experiment a bit with lighter gunwales. I ended up with a foam core inside a carbon fiber sleeve.

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I expect the gunwales to weight less than 2.5 pounds.

Image

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Randy Pfeifer
(847) 341-0618
Randy.Pfeifer1@gmail.com

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Cruiser
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Location: Bowmanville, Ontario

Re: 17' 0" Freedom

Post by Cruiser » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:25 pm

Those look really well done Randy.

I bought some material for that same gunnel idea .... did you cut the groove in the foam and let the sleeve go inside the groove or sleeve the outside and cut the groove? I am leaning to the latter.


Brian

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Patricks Dad
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Re: 17' 0" Freedom

Post by Patricks Dad » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:08 pm

I cut the groove in the foam first and then put the carbon fiber sleeve over it and poked the sleeve into the slot. I put the combination of sleeve and foam on the hull edge over a layer of saran wrap and then wet out the fiber and the foam. This allowed me to make sure the foam and carbon fiber cured with a perfect match with the curve of the hull. It's a bit tricky to make sure there is just the right amount of sleeve available to fit into the slot and still match the curvature of the gunwale. But once you get the hang of it, it's really easy. I used a .75 X .75 foam gunwale and a 1.25" diameter sleeve and a 1/2" deep groove.
Randy Pfeifer
(847) 341-0618
Randy.Pfeifer1@gmail.com

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Cruiser
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Re: 17' 0" Freedom

Post by Cruiser » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:21 am

That may be a better solution than I was thinking, thank you

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Jim Dodd
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Re: 17' 0" Freedom

Post by Jim Dodd » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:33 am

Looks great Randy !
I'm guessing you won't hang seats from the gunnels.
Excited to see it finished !

How did you hold the gunnel down on the hull ? Maybe a strapping system ?

Thanks !

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!

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Patricks Dad
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Re: 17' 0" Freedom

Post by Patricks Dad » Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:18 pm

Jim, The foam sheathed in carbon fiber gunwales were pretty flexible. They pretty much just stayed where I put them. I applied them with thickened (and blackened) epoxy in the narrow slot. But just to be safe, I laid the forms for the original hull across the gunwales and put a bit of weight on them.

Just finished that task a few minutes ago.
Randy Pfeifer
(847) 341-0618
Randy.Pfeifer1@gmail.com

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Jim Dodd
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Re: 17' 0" Freedom

Post by Jim Dodd » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:46 pm

Hi again Randy !
Did you happen to weigh your foam insert on the bottom of the hull, before epoxying ?
I just made a 1/8" cedar insert for a 16' solo. It weighed in at a little over 4#. After epoxying it in, I will scrape and sand, hoping to remove at least 1/4#.
Image
Anyway I'm curious what your foam insert weighed !
Thanks !

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!

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Patricks Dad
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Re: 17' 0" Freedom

Post by Patricks Dad » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 pm

Gunwales weight first. I weighed the boat this weekend after adding a filet between the gunwale and the hull (inside and out). The gunwales added a total of 3 pounds to the weight. Compared with the 7 pounds my aluminum gunwales weighed on the previous version I guess it's fairly decent. It was a lot of effort but they look pretty good. I'm pondering thwarts now. I spent all day yesterday building up a foam thwart and sheathed it in the same carbon fiber sleeve. I weighed it this morning and it was .4 ounces lighter than equivalent length of aluminum tube I already had on hand.... :thinking

My foam insert in the football area was 2 layers of 1/8" foam. The foam weighed 2 pounds (.66 CF of 3 lb/CF foam). After epoxy to glue the two layers into the hull, I think it was just over 4 pounds. The foam absorbs more epoxy than I would have expected it to. A single piece of 1/4" thick foam would have weighed about 1 pound less (less than half the epoxy)
Randy Pfeifer
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Randy.Pfeifer1@gmail.com

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Jim Dodd
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Re: 17' 0" Freedom

Post by Jim Dodd » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:26 pm

Thanks Randy !

Another builder, I know from another site, used 1/8" Divynicel. He thought his insert was just over 1 #.
For now I'm content with my wood insert, but will definitely look into foam on my next composite build !

Glad the carbon sleeve worked !

Again Thanks !

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!

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Patricks Dad
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Re: 17' 0" Freedom

Post by Patricks Dad » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:13 pm

1/8" foam at 1 pound is consistent with my experience (2 pounds for 2 layers of 1/8" foam). But the epoxy added to glue it in place was no trivial.
Randy Pfeifer
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Randy.Pfeifer1@gmail.com

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Jim Dodd
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Re: 17' 0" Freedom

Post by Jim Dodd » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:22 am

Yes !

Just another question, are you planning on any additional flotation ?

With the foam layers and foam gunnels, might be enough ?

I'm adding chambers and that will again add weight, but in my build, necessary.

Thanks !

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!

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