Non-Bear Mountain Designs

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Jim Dodd
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Re: Non-Bear Mountain Designs

Post by Jim Dodd » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:15 pm

Double sided tape. The kind they use for window shrink film should be fine. I have some laying around ! I'll give it a try myself.

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!

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Patricks Dad
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Re: Non-Bear Mountain Designs

Post by Patricks Dad » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:33 pm

Here's an easy trick for this problem. Take a couple thin strips of wood (say 1/16" x 3/4" x 10"). Glue a small cleat on one end of each. Clamp them (on the non-cleat end) to the strip you are trying to glue to the stem so the end with the cleat lands near the end of the strip. your clamp can then grab onto the cleats and the thin strips are flexible enough to twist with the strip (you'll need to accommodate the twist more as you go up the stem).

On the subject of twisting the strips to align with the stem farther up the stem, leave the strip long so you can put a clamp on the end of the strip beyond the stem and put a torque force on it with a string to a screw or nail in the strongback... You can twist the string to put an arbitrary twist in the strip while the glue sets.

I've never nailed a strip in my life.
Randy Pfeifer
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Rehd Brown
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Re: Non-Bear Mountain Designs

Post by Rehd Brown » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:38 pm

Hi Randy
Yep, I've seen many of these different methods used in the past. Years ago on the kayak forum and on this one. I made my strips 3/16" x 5/8" for this reason ( along with less weight ) and the Paulownia bends very easily. I don't think I'll need much force to keep them down.
One trick the skin on frame builders used to use was to support your long frame members, usually 3/4" x 2 1/2" and if you wanted it to twist more to one side, you just put a clamp on it, with the excess weight hanging out in the direction you wanted the twist. Leave it that way and eventually the weight of the clamp will twist the piece that direction. So, I believe that could be applied here as well, if you have stubborn strips. Clamp it to the molds most of the way, then put a small spring clamp on the end so it weights it in the direction you want the twist. The strip will eventually relax and twist where you want it.
Most people just want to get it done, NOW, and use whatever method forces it in place. Me Too..!!
:wink
However, as I mentioned, the Paulownia bends easily, and I just need to hold it there. The double stick tape will work great by putting a small wedge of wood to keep the clamp from slipping. Only takes a min to apply, then peels right off and you go to the next strip.
I've been looking for adhesive backed sand paper all over around here and nobody seems to have it. I'll have to go online to find that, I guess. Making jigs and tools for the shop.

O.K. Back to work..

Rehd

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Jim Dodd
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Re: Non-Bear Mountain Designs

Post by Jim Dodd » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:42 pm

Image
Works great ! I used some double sided tape.
PSA sanding discs should be available.at about any auto parts store.


Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!

Rehd Brown
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Re: Non-Bear Mountain Designs

Post by Rehd Brown » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:27 pm

Oh, I've got the disk type. I've been watching Woodsmith Shop online and many of their jigs use adhesive backed sandpaper to keep parts from slipping. They are using rolls of 3" or 4" wide stuff, cutting off what they need and peeling off the backing to attach to their fences. It's in rolls, but it's long flat stuff you can use about anywhere. You can also paste some on a saw top or other flat surface and hand sand parts for fine tuning.
As to the double sided tape, I tried it on the strips and wedge theory and it doesn't work 100%. I was using the scotch brand from a tape roll, because I can't find the rolls of white stuff locally. However... what you did by putting the paper on the clamp itself should work perfect. This tape states on the roll that it has to be smooth surfaces. The clamp and paper backing would definitely work. The Pony clamps don't have the large flat area, but, I still have a couple of old clamps like what you are using, that do have the pads.

Waiting for glue to set and I'll go try again with those clamps..! Thanks..!
:wink

Rehd

Rehd Brown
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Re: Non-Bear Mountain Designs

Post by Rehd Brown » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:13 pm

Had some time between rain showers today to sneak out to the shed and add a couple more strips to the S.G.
It was wet and cool and taking a long time for the glue to set, so that was all I got done. This storm breaks up tomorrow some time, so this weekend should be good for building. Also spending time to tune up and repair tools, going back and forth every couple hours to work out in the shed. Tomorrow, if it’s still wet out I may spend it shaping the stems for the next few strips on each side.


Image

I've been looking for some Baltic Birch 3/4" plywood and can't seem to find it in any of the B-Box Stores.
The one I'm looking for has approx.11 plys, no voids, and costs a paycheck for a 60" x 60" sheet. I've heard they actually come in 48" x 96" sheets now. I'm planning on making a few jigs for my tools.


Rehd

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Cruiser
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Re: Non-Bear Mountain Designs

Post by Cruiser » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:13 am

Concur on the Baltic Birch ply, expensive, but just a lot stronger and a lot nicer to work with. I have taken to doing my molds with the 1/2".

I believe the 48" x98" are not available in all thicknesses, just a few, at least at my supplier.


Brian

Rehd Brown
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Re: Non-Bear Mountain Designs

Post by Rehd Brown » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:19 pm

I love working with it. And it makes for very clean looking projects. I've got one last place here in town that may carry it. Wholesale only, but I can use the ranch account. Problem there being minimum orders.
We shall see.. 1/2" for the boat and 3/4" for my tool jigs.
I decided to make my Prospector molds with it, or any other set I decide to cut out. I may want to make more than one boat, or possibly one of the kids might, and if I decide to let them go, (molds, not the kids) they will be in good shape and I can get my money back out of them. I also save the paper half-molds in case someone local wants to use them.
Still trying to find others in the area that would be interested in building a canoe, but, not much luck. Always fun working with others or just talking shop about others projects.
Well, looks like the rain has cleared for this week, so, time to get back to work out in the shed.
More later....


Rehd

Rehd Brown
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Re: Non-Bear Mountain Designs

Post by Rehd Brown » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:35 pm

Went out this morning and put on another couple strips. Once I had those all clamped down I decided to remove the bottom Poplar support strip. The lower strips came away from the forms a little, so re-clamped them in place. I’ll wait until around 4 oclock and put on another two strips. Already prepped the stems for them, so it will be a matter of taking off clamps and putting the strip in place and reattaching the clamps.

Image

Off to check Ore Pac and see if they have the Baltic Birch I need in the near future. Might check prices on some of their hardwoods and see what I can come up with for the next boat, and a cutting board I need to make.

Rehd

Rehd Brown
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Re: Non-Bear Mountain Designs

Post by Rehd Brown » Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:04 pm

I was able to go out and play with strips again today. Starting to look like a little progress is being made. I’ve gotten to a couple of the sharper curves and it’s looking like I should have gone to ½” strips for that. Having a tough time keeping them attached to the molds and still be able to close the gaps. Probably should sand down a little of the inner edge of the coves.. I’m resigned to putting on just one strip per side and putting it on early so when the sun is up and the temps rise above 55* it will set. It stays warm enough for about 4 or 5 hours. Guess I’ll head out to the garage and work on those extra strips.

Image

Another issue is that the Paulownia is so soft, where I clamp to the groove in the molds, it's pressing holes down into the wood. Where I just hold the strip onto the previous one, no problem. I'm pretty sure a damp rag and hot iron will pull them all out again. Fun times..!!

Rehd

Rehd Brown
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Re: Non-Bear Mountain Designs

Post by Rehd Brown » Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Opps..!! In too big a hurry..!! :laughing

Rehd Brown
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Re: Non-Bear Mountain Designs

Post by Rehd Brown » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:11 pm

Here's a picture of the clamp damage at the station molds. Only happens where I'm clamping over 1/2" thickness. Just the strip to strip clamping is fine. Didn't have time today, but tomorrow I'll try a damp rag and hot iron and see if that will take care of them. Soft stuff. I may switch to L shaped plywood pieces and see if that helps.

Image

Rehd

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Jim Dodd
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Re: Non-Bear Mountain Designs

Post by Jim Dodd » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:02 am

Wow ! That Paulina dents very easily . Those dents are way worse than if you had used a staple gun.
I'd revert to a staple gun at this point, add several layers of tape to the bottom of the stapler, so when it drives the staple in, it doesn't dent the strip. Saves a TON of sanding later !

Have fun removing all that glue ! Especially on the inside ! Go minimal with the glue ! Even If you were to miss a spot with glue, epoxy will fill any SMALL voids later.

I'm not trying to be hard on you ! Just pointing out problems that will be a pain later on !

Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!

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Cruiser
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Re: Non-Bear Mountain Designs

Post by Cruiser » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:42 am

You could make up a couple small pieces of thin hardwood, cover them with packing tape (or whatever is handy to prevent the glue from sticking) and use that as a clamp buffer to prevent that denting.

When you clamp, just use the hardwood between the clamp and the soft strip.

With that soft wood, you may want to get in the habit of wiping that glue up, before it gets a chance to harden, may be a job to remove later.


Brian

Rehd Brown
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Re: Non-Bear Mountain Designs

Post by Rehd Brown » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:08 pm

Jim
The difference between staples and these dents is that the grain in the wood is severed by the staples. Even when they swell back up, the grain is still broken and gives you a darker endgrain color where the holes are. With dents, the grain is still in tact and if they can be brought out with steam, nothing will show, provided you let the wood totally dry before any sanding or finishing is done. I think staples are O.K. if and when you are looking for the retro-style finish, but I much prefer, at least on my first couple of boats, to go stapless(?).

Brian
The only problem with using a strip of hardwood is that the clamps are already spread close to 3/4" and would be harder to put on with more thickness, plus these are both holding the strips to the form and adding downward pressure to the previous strip. The curve is especially tough to keep them down, and the hardwood plus non-stick tape would make it difficult to keep from sliding up, or even getting the clamps on.


Using the L boards, I'd have to go to my next size of clamp for the thickness to hold them to the forms, but, I believe, will hold in both directions, especially at the bilge.

One issue I'm having at the curves is that I used a 1/4" B & C set, on my 3/16" strips which leaves a flatter joint and when I came to the curve in the forms, the harder angles tend to not let the strips seal as well. It's not a wide gap by any means, but, will have to be filled.

As for the glue, yeh, my bottle makes it hard to get down a very thin glue line, but, it's what I have for now. I'll definitely go for some syringe type glue application when I do my prospector.
I can not scrape the glue on the Paulownia strips because the wood could possibly tear out. I have some fairing boards made from 3mm plywood (cut from door skins) and I have 80 grit, 100 grit and 120 grit paper on them, taken from belt sander belts. They will follow the curves and only take off the high spots until the glue is gone, and hopefully not leave any hollows around them. Inside... may be a different issue. A soft foam pad on the orbital sander maybe..??
:thinking

I will definitely start wiping it off from here on. Where I have some very fine gaps at the bilge, I will just fill with epoxy & Paulownia dust. ( gotta be careful with Paulownia Dust.. I hear it's magical ) :wink

Thanks Guys, and I'll let you know what I try and what works..

Rehd

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