1/8" strips?

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KNU4U
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1/8" strips?

Post by KNU4U »

Hey everyone! I'm new to this forum as far as posting. Couple questions. Has anyone used quarter sawn 1/8" strips in cedar for a canoe? I have used 3/16" and will never go back to 1/4". If you have used 1/8", did you have cove and bead bits made for you? I want to build the Solo Tripper 17 and it has considerable tumblehome, something a thinner strip would accomadate. I have good luck purchasing 18' material that is clear, sound 4 sides, stain grade that is 23/32" thick, resulting in a 5/8" wide strip. I am hoping that 1/8 x 5/8 would bend and flex easy which would speed up the planking stage. Any help or advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks KNU4U
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Glen Smith
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Post by Glen Smith »

I haven't yet tried anything less than 3/16" thick strips. I have read of some builders using 1/8" strips but they used hardwoods and not cedar. They also beefed up the glassing to increase the strength. Of course, a boat should be built to withstand the predicted usage.
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mtpocket
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Post by mtpocket »

The fear I would have while using 1/8" thick strips would be the thickness after fairing and sanding. If you were to remove only 1/32" on each side, interior and exterior, your hull would be 1/16" thick. I cannot imagine this to be strong enough for a 17' long boat. The areas with lots of curvature could easily eat up more wood than 1/32".
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Bryan Hansel
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Post by Bryan Hansel »

I've used 1/8" western red cedar strips, but found them to be nigh impossible to bead and cove. I have more experience with bead and coves now, so I probably could make it work now. If anything you have to be much more careful when laying the strips, because you have to make them perfect. There is no room to sand any mistakes away. In combination with the 1/8" strips, I used 3.2 ounce satin weave glass in three layers. The boat is now three years old, I think, and it has held up fine. It seems stiff enough, but I don't think that I'd beat it like I do with my Freedom.

At one point in the not to distant past, there was a guy who posted here and over at the kayak forum, who claimed that 1/8" strips and 3.2 ounce glass would yield a stronger and lighter canoe and kayak than 1/4" and 6 ounce glass. There was a big argument at the kayak forum and he was banned. He posted here for awhile, but I don't know what happened to him.
KNU4U
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Post by KNU4U »

Thanks everyone, I appreciate your feedback. I believe I will do some testing on my own. Is it that the cedar itself is providing that much rigidity? I in no way want to "reinvent the wheel" being that it already round, it's just that I want to push the envelope. Either way I promise I won't argue resulting in my being banned. There is a wealth of info on this forum, much needed and appreciated, can't harm the cause either. Thanks KNU4U
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Bryan Hansel
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Post by Bryan Hansel »

For those stubborn strips, a little boiling water, and a hot wet rag goes a long way in bending. Also clamps, rope and brads help hold those tough strips in place.

You'd have to go far far far far out to do anything close to what happened on the kayak forum.
KNU4U
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Post by KNU4U »

I ran some tests. Cedar, 3/32" thick strips edge glued, six feet long, 10 strips, 6 oz. cloth both sides with the weave filled and sanded. Did the same but used 5/32" thick strips. Test: Place piece over the mouth of a 30 gallon metal trash can and drop a 12# bowling ball four feet onto center. Results: Thick and thin strips were not permanently damaged requiring any structural repair. Test for flexibility: Step on one end and bend to 90 degrees. Results: Both pieces did this with ease, however the thicker piece showed minor stretching of the cloth within the epoxy. Thinner piece had no effects. I could say that the fabric on the thicker piece was not installed in the epoxy properly but... this happened right on the bend. I then proceeded to lay each piece on my gravel driveway, both in the exact same place at seperate times. I drove my Nissan Pathfinder drivers front tire over each piece...Results: Thick piece was scratched and gouged with minor damage to the cloth in some very small places, no crackes to the wood. Thinner piece looked exactly the same except at one end the wood had a 2" split in it but it did not fracture the epoxy and cloth. The split was with the grain.

My two cents: Both the thick and thin pieces were absolutly amazingly tough. I would have never imagined the durability of this building method. The test showed me that almost anything outside of extreme abuse or careless neglect would render my canoe unusable or unrepairable for that matter. This does raise one question that I will never be qualified to awnser and that is: If this construction is that durable then it could last for many many years so what is the life expectancy of epoxy? That's all I got, KNU4U
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Glen Smith
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Post by Glen Smith »

Very impressive tests, thanks for sharing with us. The life expectancy of epoxy? If the end product is well maintained and well stored, it should last longer than you or I will. :laughing Epoxy's biggest enemy is UV rays so if you give it a light sanding and recoat with a UV protectant varnish every few years, your boat (or whatever) will become a part of your heritage that your grandchildren will fight over. :rolling eyes
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KARKAUAI
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Post by KARKAUAI »

Hmmmm, I did a test with a completed boat...1/4" WRC, 6oz glass inside, 6oz outside with a 12"wide additional 6oz on the keel line. Placed in truck bound for the west coast. God knows what kind of abuse it got, but 3 holes thru and thru the hull, keel line buckled in 2 places with complete disruption of the wood and glass. Decks 1/2" AYC glassed both sides with 6 oz. Foreward deck fractured through the glass and wood, aft deck manu broken off completely. Solid 7/8" hardwood ring frame shattered. After reading your tests, it's hard to imagine what they did to it. Seems like it would've taken a 20 lb maul and most of the afternoon. My new hull has two layers of 6 oz inside and out on the football and another 6 oz piece on the keel line. I'm not telling the shippers, though, don't want to think I'm challenging them.
A hui ho,
Kent
KNU4U
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Post by KNU4U »

Kent, Oh my God!!!!!!!!! That is enough to make me sick. I have been in the custom cabinetry and furniture buisness for 22 years, shipping somewhere in the neighborhood of 26,000 units in that time. I have had approximately 125 cabinets a total loss from shipping damage. None of those cabinets were as strong as one of these canoes. That must have been a 20# mull and some jealous land bound canoer that was beaten by his parents with a cedar paddle. Wouldn't you like to get you hands on that character? Utterly tragic! KNU4U
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KARKAUAI
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Post by KARKAUAI »

I'm almost finished with the replacement canoe, and will put it on my truck and DRIVE it to the west coast where I'll topload it into a container full of stuff smaller than the canoe. I'll meet it in Kauai and take it out of the container myself. Just hope it doesn't turn out to be one of those 10,000 or so containers that go overboard in storms every year. They float just below the surface for a while...just long enough to be one of the major hazards to ocean voyaging sailors. Coolest story I read about overboard containers was one full of Nike tennis shoes that broke apart when it went in. The shoes started turning up all over the world, and were used to confirm mapping of the world's ocean currents...get lemons, make lemonade!
A hui ho,
Kent
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Bryan Hansel
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Post by Bryan Hansel »

I my previous career in retail, we shipped or had shipped to our stores 1000s of boats a year. It wasn't unusual for a kayak or canoe to be damaged in shipping. The only safe beat for shipping a kayak or canoe is to have it shipped by someone who only moves canoes and kayaks.

When we had to ship boats from one of our stores to a customer with a shipping company like yellow, they had two options: 1. Accept full responsibility for damage that occured during the shipment, and they were responsible for filing claims, ext... or 2. Have us build a box to ship the canoe or kayak in. When we did this, we built a fully framed box with studs on 16 inch centers with a 3/4" plywood covering. We would pack the boat in bubble wrap and then whatever we had around so the boat wouldn't move in transport.

Usually, they would leave the stores with that canoe or kayak on top of their car instead of risking shipping. Or they would pay to have us drive the boat to their house.

The big shipping companies hate canoes and kayaks, because they are hard to move, take up a lot of room, don't conform to an sort of packing box or palette size, are fragile, and they just don't know how to handle them.
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KARKAUAI
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Post by KARKAUAI »

Hi, Bryan,
Did you ever ship one oversea? The big problem with crating is that if crated it WON'T go in a container, and they say a separate crate is much more likely to get damaged...not to mention that shipping in a crate costs 3X as much. If I can get it to the west coast, I feel pretty good about the company that's going to ship it to Hawaii. They ship SOT kayaks all over the south Pacific for rental at resorts, etc.
A hui ho,
Kent
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Bryan Hansel
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Post by Bryan Hansel »

No, we never did on overseas. Just on trucks. I wonder if you could work it out to ship it with several other kayaks maybe when there is a shipment heading that way. I'm not sure what the popular brands are there, but you may want to give them a call and see who they use, ext...
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KARKAUAI
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Post by KARKAUAI »

Yep, that's the plan.
A hui ho,
Kent
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