2 Person Tripping River Canoe

[Exdaix]

Hello, I am a very active Boy Scout whom recently graduated the ranks of "scout" and joined my troop as an adult. I have always loved our canoeing trips we've done, and I have become very experienced in canoeing, including doing the Northern Tier high adventure base several years ago.

With my transition to an adult leader I wanted to do something special for myself, since I've worked hard enough running the ranks when I was younger, so I want to build a cedar strip canoe.

I am looking for a canoe that meets the following requirements:

• * Can hold 2 large adults (400-500 lbs)
  * Can carry gear for a 2 or 3 day trip (100 lbs)
  * Can be taken down a river with very mild rapids (Class 1-2 on the Delaware River, which is just like bubbly water compared to other places)
  * Is suited for intermediate to experienced canoers (flat-bottom with high stability is ok if not preferred, I know that most canoes for "experienced" paddlers have a rounder bottom, but I almost prefer the higher stability)
  * Has bow/stern with recurve

With those requirements I feel the Nomad might be a good fit, since it is good for 350-680lbs. I have also found the Traveler canoe from Newfound Woodworks to be a possibility, though I am awaiting confirmation of carrying capacity. I am also looking into their Abenaki and Nipmuc (and maybe the White Guide?) by them. Any comments on any of these I've picked out? Can I get away with a 16' canoe? I've always used fiberglass/foam canoes from Old Town, and they can carry much more in a smaller canoe than wood ones, so I am rather new to all this.

I have also found these canoes by Carrying Place, they say a 17' canoe can hold 1,000 lbs? Is that true? What is different about their canoes, or is that maximum carrying capacity before it sinks, whereas Bear Mountain has their carrying capacities set to "optimal weights"?

Any help would be appreciated, I have a large canoe trip with the Troop coming up at the very end of June, and unless I am underestimating the time it will take, I would like to complete it before then. (I plan on making everything by hand including the planks and all, and will by going staple-less.)

[Doug]

Prospector.
http://www.bearmountainboats.com/16-0Prospector.htm
(you can make it bigger or smaller)


All the best,
Doug


.

[Rick]

Ex,

Tripping with a load of 600 pounds, the Nomad should be the more suitable boat, since that weight is within the optimum capacity range. The 16' Prospector could also handle that load, but will probably be more sluggish and difficult to turn. The amount of freeboard will be less with a Prospector and you might have a wetter ride in the rapids.

Optimum load is the range of loads that the hull was designed for. It can be exceeded, as the Prospector often is, but handling characteristics will probably be poorer.

I would steer clear of flat-bottomed hulls. They are structurally less rigid than semi-arched or rounded bottoms and can oilcan (flex) too much, which will lower paddling efficiency. Oilcanning can be reduced by building in keels and ribs, but that adds on work and weight. You'll notice that there are no flat-bottomed canoes in the Bear Mountain designs.

River tripping with rapids often means contact with rocks and you might want to reinforce the hull's bottom with added layers of glass inside and out, with more under the stem areas where abrasion is highest.

Enjoy your time out on the river and good luck.

[Exdaix]

Thank you for the replies, and Rick, I should have said "flat-er" instead of "flat" bottom, my apologies.

As for river-running I had already planned on doing 2 layers of 6oz fiber on the bottom outside, with maybe a small extra strip on the edge of the bow/stern for added "bump" protection. I don't plan on portaging the canoe all that often so the extra couple lbs that will create isn't a huge deal for me, I'd rather "do it right" and prepare for the worst, so I don't ruin my nice "floating art".

I got a reply about the carry capacity of the Traveler and Nipmuc, they apparently hold 550lb total (people, gear, boat, etc.), which is a bit under my requirements. Their White Guide is a bit too large for my tastes (18.5'), so it looks like I may go with a Bear Mountain canoe. :)

[Bryan Hansel]

they say a 17' canoe can hold 1,000 lbs? Is that true? What is different about their canoes, or is that maximum carrying capacity before it sinks, whereas Bear Mountain has their carrying capacities set to "optimal weights"?

I would imagine that it is true, but you might be looking at a pretty low freeboard, which is the amount of the canoe left above the waterline. You see companies like Old Town list their capacities in this range all the time. What they're doing is giving the 6 inch freeboard load, which for what you want to use it for is way too low.

The Nomad is a nice looking canoe, and I would guess you'd be happy with it. All the Swift canoes are now available as plans ... this means the Dumonie is available for the home builder...

Bryan

[Patricks Dad]

Exdaix,
Welcome to the forum! You'll find the folks that frequent this forum to be outstanding. Lots of great prompt advice. I'm a Scoutmaster for a troop here in IL. My sons are both in the troop and we love to paddle as well. We'll be going back to NT this summer. We recently (Sept '05) finished a Redbird. It took us 13 months from beginning to end. Finishing a canoe between now and the end of June is aggressive. But I know people who have done it in that much time. Good luck!

[Exdaix]

I saw on the FAQ that time to make one of the canoes is about 100-250 hours and I figure going stapless and making my own planks and being new to this 250 would be a good estimate. I figure there are 8 weekend days per month (sat/sun), and 4 months of that is 32... divide 250 by 32 and you get about 8 hours per day each sat/sun. And if you count in the few hours each weekday I'd put into it, I think it could be done... whenever I start something I usually go full-force into it like a crazy man on a mission.

[Patricks Dad]

I never could figure out how to come up with a canoe in 100 hours of work. We lost track of our time early into the project but I'm certain we spent way more than 250. We found that the farther we got into the project the more we liked what we were seeing and the more careful we bacame and the slower things went. Also, there are lots of jobs that involved downtime (e.g., waiting for epoxy or varnish to cure, steam bent stems/gunwales to dry). You can alilgn many of these with weekdays to help maximize progress during the weekends but I think it's hard to pack pure productivity into an 8 hour day (every time). But don't let me discourage you at all. Keep the focus and energy up and you will make great progress and will have a fantastic canoe when you finish (whenever you finish).

[Bryan Hansel]

I just checked my spreadsheet for the hours spent on my last kayak. 162 hours not including a final sanding and varnishing. Plus, I'm repositioning the front bulkhead and I still have to mount the seat. The bulkhead will probably be three to four hours. Sanding 1.5 hours. And then about 2 hours per coating of varnish. Three total coats. I guess 12 to 14 more hours. There was a lot of fiddling time and redos in this build. I'm pretty sure that now that I've done a couple canoes and kayaks that I could crank one out in under 100 hours, but the first one...

Here's a schedule (I need to post my spreadsheet online soon):

10 Hours: Buy, Mill strips
8 to 12 Hours: Cut forms, build strongback, mount forms
36 Hours: Stripping (kayak)
20? Hours: Stripping (canoe)
16 Hours: planning and sanding
18 Hours: Glassing
12 Hours: Sanding, epoxy, sanding
6 Hours: Varnish
Rest: Bulkheads, hatches, cockpit, coaming, compass mount, seams, etc...

Here's a link to a fast kayak build by Bjorn Thomasson (http://www.thomassondesign.com/news/new ... o=archives)

[patrickdoty]

I also am an eagle scout but never have gone through northern tier. I work as a wilderness guide for a camp on the east end of the BWCA and have paddles my freedom 17'9 for 3 summers. One thing i can tell you is that if your planning on carrying a lot of weight in your boat on a river, plan on having to patch your boat after each trip. This obersvation comes from being on 20 day trips and having 700-800 pounds of gear in my canoe and hitting "canoe eaters" lurking below the surface of the water. In my opinion a cedar strip is the worst idea for a river canoe, as a royalex boat is the prime canidate. If your beautiful cedar boat to look ugly with patch upon patch than go for it.......mine has a few.

[Jerrett]

i've been away from the forum for a while. I was wondering how your boat is coming. Or did you finish in time for the June troop canoe trip? I had planned on finnishing my Prospector before winter. I really wanted to be able to park my car in my garage this winter. My new goal is for spring......I hope spring 2007.