Hello!
I have been looking for plans to build my own kayak for more than a year now, and have mostly just managed to confuse myself. I have some woodworking experience and will also be relying on my dad's expertise in the area - he would like to build a canoe. I am open to strip, plywood, skin-on-frame, or stitch-and-glue designs, and he would prefer his using the strip method. To follow are more detailed descriptions of what each of us is looking for.
I am a beginning kayaker with a lot of flatwater canoe experience. I tried a kayak on a river trip with my scout group and fell in love with the greater manueverability it allowed me. I also like the look of kayaks better than canoes. I am 5'4" and 170 lbs. I would like a small kayak that would be manageable both on shore and on the water as a solo vessel (single seater, of course). Straight tracking is less important to me than the ability to turn on a dime, and I am also less concerned with stability than your average beginner (though that doesn't mean I want a boat that is overly tipsy). I will be using the kayak almost entirely on flatwater (flatwater rivers and small lakes), but would love to try out whitewater when I get a chance. I may use the kayak for trips up to a week, but especially for longer trips there will be canoes around, so luggage capacity doesn't have to be large - mostly just enough for a day pack.
My dad is bigger than me, though I'm not sure exactly how much. He is probably 5'8" or so, and maybe 210 lbs. For him, stability and tracking are extremely important. He prefers a canoe and will be using it for only day trips. His canoe would only be used on flatwater, though he may be interested in using it for fishing. A one-person vessel is preferred, but a two person vessel that would be reasonably managed in the water by one person would also be good - this would allow my brother to come with us when we take the wooden boats out instead of the aluminum canoe.
Thank you!
New to building boats
I would also ask about if you intend to do much portaging... Portaging a kayak is a pain compared to a canoe. Its also less pleasant in really hot weather.
But that said if you really are sure its a kayak you want I'd say you can't go wrong buying Nick Schade's book and building one of the kayak designs detailed there... I like the Auk family for appearances. You can check his website out here: http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/
I like the same maneuvering ability and speed, and low drag that a kayak gives, but I find it too restrictive in terms of access, seating options, portaging, paddling options etc... So I'm looking at solo canoes that come close to a kayak in size and thus will feel similar in the "performance" but also have the benefits a canoe offers. The Freedom Solo 15'3" is a boat that will be much like that I suspect. Thats how I'd lean if I was building.
Just some more things to think on.
But that said if you really are sure its a kayak you want I'd say you can't go wrong buying Nick Schade's book and building one of the kayak designs detailed there... I like the Auk family for appearances. You can check his website out here: http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/
I like the same maneuvering ability and speed, and low drag that a kayak gives, but I find it too restrictive in terms of access, seating options, portaging, paddling options etc... So I'm looking at solo canoes that come close to a kayak in size and thus will feel similar in the "performance" but also have the benefits a canoe offers. The Freedom Solo 15'3" is a boat that will be much like that I suspect. Thats how I'd lean if I was building.
Just some more things to think on.
Re: New to building boats
There really is a huge array of boats to choose from. I am building a guillemot (17', 21" beam) from the book by Nick Schade - a good book on strip building and I like Nick's designs. Of course you should also check out "Kayakcraft" by Ted Moores and "Kayaks You Can Build - an illustrated guide to plywood construction" by Ted Moores & Greg Rossel. I haven't read either of these books, but have read Canoecraft over & over and believe Ted knows his stuff. I used techniques from both books, combined with techniques gleaned from the web (including this forum & the one at Guillemot) in building my kayak. Just to confuse things, you might also want to have a look at the book "The New Kayak Shop" by Chris Kulczycki as well as "Building Skin-on-Frame Boats" by Robert Morris. Each of the books mentioned has multiple designs to choose from, and of course there are many others. If you build from kits, you might also want to have a look at those from WatersDancing out of Edmonton.jess_hawk wrote:... I am open to strip, plywood, skin-on-frame, or stitch-and-glue designs, and he would prefer his using the strip method.
So many boats, so little time! Have a look on the net & in the books to find some designs that you think might suit your needs or has the correct amount of sex appeal to turn your crank. With specific boats in mind, folks may be able to better comment on what is suitable.
Cheers,
Bryan
Most of my longer trips are on fully navigable rivers, no protaging at all... My main lake for canoeing (and kayaking once I get one made) is all connected, too. So no, not much portaging at all.
I am totally certain I want a kayak. I like the fact that it is covered - I don't know why it appeals to me so much, it just does - even though it makes it harder to reach things that roll to the end of the boat. For one thing, I suppose, I got far less sunburn when I was kayaking than on the exact same trip canoeing.
Looking through the Guillemont kayaks on the website, I kind of like the Petrel, although it is the very longest end of what I would want to build, this time... Also the 11 foot little Auk or the 14 foot Great Auk.
I own The New Kayak Shop, though it is at home at the moment and I'm at college so I don't have immediate access to it. I'll go look around some more and be back later with a few more of the designs I thought might be good.
I am totally certain I want a kayak. I like the fact that it is covered - I don't know why it appeals to me so much, it just does - even though it makes it harder to reach things that roll to the end of the boat. For one thing, I suppose, I got far less sunburn when I was kayaking than on the exact same trip canoeing.
Looking through the Guillemont kayaks on the website, I kind of like the Petrel, although it is the very longest end of what I would want to build, this time... Also the 11 foot little Auk or the 14 foot Great Auk.
I own The New Kayak Shop, though it is at home at the moment and I'm at college so I don't have immediate access to it. I'll go look around some more and be back later with a few more of the designs I thought might be good.
http://www.laughingloon.com-- I really like the Georgian Bay kayak, has anyone ever tried it?
In general, I think I'm looking for a kayak with more rocker than a lot of the plans I'm finding online. Max length 17' simply because I can imagine myself trying to haul a 20' kayak on top of mycar, and then carrying it to the water... besides being completely awkward it would look ridiculous (I can here my best friend Mike laughing already) and in addition, some of my favorite places to paddle would already be tight fits for a 17' boat (in fact there's one area we use to get back into the swing of paddling, where we have to back our short stubby little canoe because there isn't room to turn it). Anyway, a lot of online plans are for sea kayaks... do any of these books have plans for kayaks with more rocker?
In general, I think I'm looking for a kayak with more rocker than a lot of the plans I'm finding online. Max length 17' simply because I can imagine myself trying to haul a 20' kayak on top of mycar, and then carrying it to the water... besides being completely awkward it would look ridiculous (I can here my best friend Mike laughing already) and in addition, some of my favorite places to paddle would already be tight fits for a 17' boat (in fact there's one area we use to get back into the swing of paddling, where we have to back our short stubby little canoe because there isn't room to turn it). Anyway, a lot of online plans are for sea kayaks... do any of these books have plans for kayaks with more rocker?
caspian sea
This kayak from John Winters has good assymetrical rocker and seems to fit your smaller than 17 foot size category.
http://www.greenval.com/caspian.html
http://www.greenval.com/caspian.html
There's no need to go as long as 17' unless you want a bigger boat, which I don't think you do. Something with a waterline length of about 15' will give you a good compromise between low drag and capacity etc... Also a 15' boat is lighter, and being shorter will turn much more easily than a longer boat, even though they may have similar rocker.
Also something like the Caspian mentioned above with the differential rocker will be both easily turned and quite good at tracking, due to the nature of the boat shape and where you apply the turning forces in a kayak.
Overall length and waterline length can be quite close if the stems are nearly vertical or quite different if there's long sloping stems on the boat. You'll have to check the designs you're thinking of.
The books mentioned all have a great range of plans and ideas. The Robert Morris book "Skin on Frame Boatbuilding" has a couple of shorter style plans in it. His designs also are traditionally based around the builder's body size so each boat is completely unique and sized exactly to the builder. This is a departure from the more "western" approach of a fixed size.
Nick Schade mentions stretching of shrinking plans in his book and some designs like the Auks, he mentions are particularly well suited to this. If it was me I'd stretch the 14 Great Auk to 15', by shifting the station spacing a bit longer... But then I really like the aesthetics of the Auks as I 've said.
Finally choose a boat that you like the look of the "shape" as opposed to the wood or fancy triim etc. This will give you something you'll like to look at. This is important because between building and paddling you're going to be looking at it A LOT.
The Laughing Loon "Georgian Bay" is a nice looking boat but I wouldn't consider it to be what you've said you want. Its both larger than what I've gathered you really want, and the description says it tracks really well. This means its harder to turn unless you do something like heel it up on its side.
Also look at the Venture 14 frome Bear Mountain. its a bit shorter again, but has a really low wetted area so it'll feel very efficient, quick to accelerate and light to paddle.
Also something like the Caspian mentioned above with the differential rocker will be both easily turned and quite good at tracking, due to the nature of the boat shape and where you apply the turning forces in a kayak.
Overall length and waterline length can be quite close if the stems are nearly vertical or quite different if there's long sloping stems on the boat. You'll have to check the designs you're thinking of.
The books mentioned all have a great range of plans and ideas. The Robert Morris book "Skin on Frame Boatbuilding" has a couple of shorter style plans in it. His designs also are traditionally based around the builder's body size so each boat is completely unique and sized exactly to the builder. This is a departure from the more "western" approach of a fixed size.
Nick Schade mentions stretching of shrinking plans in his book and some designs like the Auks, he mentions are particularly well suited to this. If it was me I'd stretch the 14 Great Auk to 15', by shifting the station spacing a bit longer... But then I really like the aesthetics of the Auks as I 've said.
Finally choose a boat that you like the look of the "shape" as opposed to the wood or fancy triim etc. This will give you something you'll like to look at. This is important because between building and paddling you're going to be looking at it A LOT.
The Laughing Loon "Georgian Bay" is a nice looking boat but I wouldn't consider it to be what you've said you want. Its both larger than what I've gathered you really want, and the description says it tracks really well. This means its harder to turn unless you do something like heel it up on its side.
Also look at the Venture 14 frome Bear Mountain. its a bit shorter again, but has a really low wetted area so it'll feel very efficient, quick to accelerate and light to paddle.
Given your description, it sounds like you would be more interested in the Guillemot and Night Heron designs. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but these boats are known for their looser tracking.
If I was you, I would build the Guillemot Petrel or a Redfish King or maybe an OrcaBoats Kiska I've spoken with Joe Greenley from Redfish, and he confirmed that a person can shorten the length of the King by a foot and still have pretty much the same performance. If I remember correctly, he had one customer shorten the King to 14' and they loved the boat. I imagine you could take a foot off of the length of the Petrel too, but maybe write Nick Schade an email and ask him. I don't see any reason why the Kiska could not be made 6" shorter without any worries either.
Redfish King
OrcaBoats Kiska
If I was you, I would build the Guillemot Petrel or a Redfish King or maybe an OrcaBoats Kiska I've spoken with Joe Greenley from Redfish, and he confirmed that a person can shorten the length of the King by a foot and still have pretty much the same performance. If I remember correctly, he had one customer shorten the King to 14' and they loved the boat. I imagine you could take a foot off of the length of the Petrel too, but maybe write Nick Schade an email and ask him. I don't see any reason why the Kiska could not be made 6" shorter without any worries either.
Redfish King
OrcaBoats Kiska
I do really like the Caspian Sea boat... I had seen it earlier but I misread part of the description and placed it in my, so-so pile. Its now in the "good" pile :smile . I didn't like the Venture as much. It seems like the Caspian Sea would be more likely to perform well in a variety of situations, given how they are described on their respective websites. The Venture is in the "decent" pile (ok so I have more of a spectrum than a set of piles).
I think I would rather avoid adjusting plans for my first time building. I don't want to do something stupid and end up messing with the hydrodynamics or something. Once I've done my first boat, if I enjoy it, I'll probably toss out the rule book and try some improv.
I love improvising making things.
One final question... (remembering now that I was going to bring the book I already own up to school this week, grr me)... I'd rather spend money to get a book and have to enlarge/draw out plans myself, rather than spending the $100 to buy plans... but libraries nearby don't have the books that have been suggested for me to check out and see what plans are available in them. Considering that I do like the Caspian Sea, are there any plans for similar kayaks in any of the books? seems like about 15 feet might be a good length.
I think I would rather avoid adjusting plans for my first time building. I don't want to do something stupid and end up messing with the hydrodynamics or something. Once I've done my first boat, if I enjoy it, I'll probably toss out the rule book and try some improv.
I love improvising making things.
One final question... (remembering now that I was going to bring the book I already own up to school this week, grr me)... I'd rather spend money to get a book and have to enlarge/draw out plans myself, rather than spending the $100 to buy plans... but libraries nearby don't have the books that have been suggested for me to check out and see what plans are available in them. Considering that I do like the Caspian Sea, are there any plans for similar kayaks in any of the books? seems like about 15 feet might be a good length.
build the boat you want
not the one you can find in the library. Consider the cost of materials and all the hours you will spend on this boat AND all the days you will spend paddling this boat. If the Caspian is the boat you like the most than spend the 85.50 for the plans and build it.
Hey, I just remembered another kayak you should check out!
The Pygmy Tern 14. I built one myself (haven't launched it yet though). It's a S&G kayak, which for me was a great starting point for boat building. The Tern 14 gets rave reviews for being a really fun boat to paddle. Despite its shorter length, the kayak was not necessarily designed for petite people. From what I gather it tracks okay (doesn't need a rudder) but also turns very well. It's stability is good and it can carry a load. I think the one knock against it is that it isn't a speed demon (if speed is your thing).
Pygmy website:
http://www.pygmyboats.com/PRICELIS.HTM
search for Tern reviews here:
http://tinyurl.com/2guohj
My Tern 14 blog:
http://www.dryfly.ca/blog/category/tern-14/
My Tern 14 gallery with descriptions:
http://www.dryfly.ca/gallery2/v/tern14/
The Pygmy Tern 14. I built one myself (haven't launched it yet though). It's a S&G kayak, which for me was a great starting point for boat building. The Tern 14 gets rave reviews for being a really fun boat to paddle. Despite its shorter length, the kayak was not necessarily designed for petite people. From what I gather it tracks okay (doesn't need a rudder) but also turns very well. It's stability is good and it can carry a load. I think the one knock against it is that it isn't a speed demon (if speed is your thing).
Pygmy website:
http://www.pygmyboats.com/PRICELIS.HTM
search for Tern reviews here:
http://tinyurl.com/2guohj
My Tern 14 blog:
http://www.dryfly.ca/blog/category/tern-14/
My Tern 14 gallery with descriptions:
http://www.dryfly.ca/gallery2/v/tern14/
For most paddlers the water line length of 14-15 feet gives reasonable capacity with a minimum of wetted surface area for efficient paddling below the transition to most of the drag being from wave making. (Hull speed related drag.)
Unless you are willing to paddle hard all the time the loss of speed from a boat 14-15 feet at the waterline compared to one at 17 feet is quite small...
The advantage is that the low wetted surface means the hull carries its speed quite well and seems to "glide" better than a longer hull would. Wetted area increases faster with waterline beam than length. And turning gets easier in shorter boats,but tracking tends to decrease.
In the end you're the only one who can choose the design you want to build and just about any design from a well known designer will be not be a mistake.
I'm just trying to help you understand what effect the various specifications are likely to have in comparing designs.
Unless you are willing to paddle hard all the time the loss of speed from a boat 14-15 feet at the waterline compared to one at 17 feet is quite small...
The advantage is that the low wetted surface means the hull carries its speed quite well and seems to "glide" better than a longer hull would. Wetted area increases faster with waterline beam than length. And turning gets easier in shorter boats,but tracking tends to decrease.
In the end you're the only one who can choose the design you want to build and just about any design from a well known designer will be not be a mistake.
I'm just trying to help you understand what effect the various specifications are likely to have in comparing designs.
Hmmmmm.... alright... plans not book. I'll probably end up with another book anyway.
Rapt, thank you for the explanations on hydrodynamics. Physics isn't my thing, so when I see a lot of those specifications on the kayaks, I start going crosseyed. Its a huge help to have it laid out in plane English.
Sluggo, I definitely like the look of the Tern 14. I'd be interested to hear how it paddles once you get it launched. How much rocker does it have? It looks fairly straight from you pictures. I really wish I had 3D images of the kayaks I'm considering building, to get a good idea of the dimensions of them. Anyway, I'm guessing it will probably have plenty of speed for my tastes - Most of the kayaking I'll be doing will be along with people in your standard "clunker" aluminum canoes, so I can paddle circles around them without too much speed. :big grin Anyway, it also sounds like for a 14 foot boat the Tern would handle rougher water pretty well - probably not going to take it out on the ocean or the great lakes, but the boat traffic on a couple of the lakes I'd like to paddle can create a pretty good chop (which is why my dad would never take our clunker canoe out on them).
and since I could definitely stand to lose a few lbs, its good to know that the Tern can handle a heavier paddler. I'm not real tall, but I am a girl, so seated (such as in a kayak) my weight distribution is such that my center of gravity is actually higher than my 6'3" friend, Mike (we weigh the same, but he's got really long legs). :D hehe poor Mike probably won't fit very well in my kayak, with those long legs of his. That ought to drive him nuts. :twisted evil I love tormenting Mike like that.
Rapt, thank you for the explanations on hydrodynamics. Physics isn't my thing, so when I see a lot of those specifications on the kayaks, I start going crosseyed. Its a huge help to have it laid out in plane English.
Sluggo, I definitely like the look of the Tern 14. I'd be interested to hear how it paddles once you get it launched. How much rocker does it have? It looks fairly straight from you pictures. I really wish I had 3D images of the kayaks I'm considering building, to get a good idea of the dimensions of them. Anyway, I'm guessing it will probably have plenty of speed for my tastes - Most of the kayaking I'll be doing will be along with people in your standard "clunker" aluminum canoes, so I can paddle circles around them without too much speed. :big grin Anyway, it also sounds like for a 14 foot boat the Tern would handle rougher water pretty well - probably not going to take it out on the ocean or the great lakes, but the boat traffic on a couple of the lakes I'd like to paddle can create a pretty good chop (which is why my dad would never take our clunker canoe out on them).
and since I could definitely stand to lose a few lbs, its good to know that the Tern can handle a heavier paddler. I'm not real tall, but I am a girl, so seated (such as in a kayak) my weight distribution is such that my center of gravity is actually higher than my 6'3" friend, Mike (we weigh the same, but he's got really long legs). :D hehe poor Mike probably won't fit very well in my kayak, with those long legs of his. That ought to drive him nuts. :twisted evil I love tormenting Mike like that.
Last edited by jess_hawk on Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Actually Jess,
Girls (women) tend to have a LOWER centre of gravity than men. Its because of the reduced upper body mass, and proportionally larger pelvis. Its not a lot (a couple inches), but it does make it more stable for you when doing balance related things.
And you're welcome with the explanations.. They are naturally simplifications, but I tried to keep them as accurate as possible within that limitation.
Stitch and glue has the advantage of being faster to build, but the hull shapes are slightly less effcient usually because hard chines make more drag and the hull shape is more limited in options. Either the bottom is flat or somewhat v-shaped... There's really not a lot of other options.
Anyways, good luck making a choice! Its one most of us struggle with... I couldn't decide on what solo canoe I wanted to build so I designed my own! I'm building it this spring and I'll get to see how I did once I'm finished.
Girls (women) tend to have a LOWER centre of gravity than men. Its because of the reduced upper body mass, and proportionally larger pelvis. Its not a lot (a couple inches), but it does make it more stable for you when doing balance related things.
And you're welcome with the explanations.. They are naturally simplifications, but I tried to keep them as accurate as possible within that limitation.
Stitch and glue has the advantage of being faster to build, but the hull shapes are slightly less effcient usually because hard chines make more drag and the hull shape is more limited in options. Either the bottom is flat or somewhat v-shaped... There's really not a lot of other options.
Anyways, good luck making a choice! Its one most of us struggle with... I couldn't decide on what solo canoe I wanted to build so I designed my own! I'm building it this spring and I'll get to see how I did once I'm finished.
Oops! yeah I guess girls would usually have lower center of gravity than guys. It doesn't hold true in a seated position (when he's standing up obviously he's got the high center of gravity that comes with being over6') with Mike and I, simply because he's a skinny scrawny kid with long legs and not much breadth to his shoulders (yet... he's still growing). I never think about weight distribution for other guys, Mike's the only one I wrestle with (my other friends say we're worse than siblings).