I am new to canoe building, in fact I have only gotten as far as purchasing CanoeCraft. However I have been a professional cabinet maker for nearly 20 years, so I am not new to working with wood. And being familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of many species, I am wondering about the canoes ability to withstand abuse, namely rapids.
Most pictures of wood canoes that I see are of flat water lakes.
Here is a short video I saw on YouTube of some people navigating rocks and some of them (not on purpose) slam their canoes into the rock hard enough to knock them out of their seat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYzTIkac23Q
If you watch the video, how would you classify the rapids? Class 2?
This is about the most extreme that I imagine me taking my canoe, so if a 16' prospector will handle this, then I am set.
Thanks for any info you can pass along. I just don't want to end up with $600+ worth of toothpics.
rodent
how strong are wood canoes?
I wouldn't take a cedarstrip canoe down rapids like that, or a lightweight kevlar, either... both will be damaged and are the wrong choice for that kind of water. Kevlar has a reputation for being bulletproof but in a lightweight canoe will be holed easily by a sharp rock.
You could build a cedarstrip with muliple layers of fiberglass - it will be heavy and more durable to withstand the damage from rocks. The best thing IMO, would be to use a Royalex or polyethylene canoe designed for whitewater, heavy and rugged, and keep the lighter cedarstrip for flatwater trips. Birchbark canoes were also light in weight and fragile compared to cedarstrips today and traversed thousands of miles of canoe routes... they weren't used in water they weren't suited to.
You could build a cedarstrip with muliple layers of fiberglass - it will be heavy and more durable to withstand the damage from rocks. The best thing IMO, would be to use a Royalex or polyethylene canoe designed for whitewater, heavy and rugged, and keep the lighter cedarstrip for flatwater trips. Birchbark canoes were also light in weight and fragile compared to cedarstrips today and traversed thousands of miles of canoe routes... they weren't used in water they weren't suited to.
That's quite the video. There are so many things wrong with it I don't even know where to begin. Maybe the coolers used for flotation would be a start. The issue has been thorouglhly discussed over in the Canadian Canoe Routes forum.
I would guess that it's maybe a 1+ rapid, maybe a 2 at most. It's a clear approach with an obstacle to avoid; not a series of obstacles and not big water. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing from the video but I cannot figure out why every canoe approaches it from river right.
A canoe will be as strong as you build it, but the cedarcstrip methods are inherently strong. I think what holds a lot of back from using cedar strip canoes in rapids is that there is significant perceived risk of damage every time you head down a rapids. Having spent 300 hours (give or take a couple hundred) building that beautiful craft, can you risk it? For many the answer is no, but some folks certainly do so I hope to hear from some of them.
The bigger question rather than can the canoe take it, is what is your paddling skill level? Would you compare yourself to the folks in that video? If so, then find lessons and practice before you head far from help, no matter what your watercraft is made of.
Myself, I am currently looking to purchase a royalex canoe for my wilderness whitewater exploits in northern Saskatchewan shield country. However, I also want to build a solo cedar strip canoe and envision myself tripping with it in class 2 rapids, after I tune up my solo skills some more.
It should be noted that not all class 2 (or class 1 etc) is the same. I've paddled some shallow rocky class 1 rivers where sliding over rocks is simply inevitble. I do it in a fiberglass canoe and don't bat an eye, though a royalex canoe wouold be better suited to the task.
Cheers,
Bryan
I would guess that it's maybe a 1+ rapid, maybe a 2 at most. It's a clear approach with an obstacle to avoid; not a series of obstacles and not big water. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing from the video but I cannot figure out why every canoe approaches it from river right.
A canoe will be as strong as you build it, but the cedarcstrip methods are inherently strong. I think what holds a lot of back from using cedar strip canoes in rapids is that there is significant perceived risk of damage every time you head down a rapids. Having spent 300 hours (give or take a couple hundred) building that beautiful craft, can you risk it? For many the answer is no, but some folks certainly do so I hope to hear from some of them.
The bigger question rather than can the canoe take it, is what is your paddling skill level? Would you compare yourself to the folks in that video? If so, then find lessons and practice before you head far from help, no matter what your watercraft is made of.
Myself, I am currently looking to purchase a royalex canoe for my wilderness whitewater exploits in northern Saskatchewan shield country. However, I also want to build a solo cedar strip canoe and envision myself tripping with it in class 2 rapids, after I tune up my solo skills some more.
It should be noted that not all class 2 (or class 1 etc) is the same. I've paddled some shallow rocky class 1 rivers where sliding over rocks is simply inevitble. I do it in a fiberglass canoe and don't bat an eye, though a royalex canoe wouold be better suited to the task.
Cheers,
Bryan
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Bryan Hansel
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Re: how strong are wood canoes?
Riffles.rodent wrote:If you watch the video, how would you classify the rapids? Class 2?
Just learn how to paddle. As far as I can tell most of the people in the video never really learned that skill. :)This is about the most extreme that I imagine me taking my canoe, so if a 16' prospector will handle this, then I am set.
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canoeblderinmt
- Posts: 415
- Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:04 pm
- Location: Butte, MT
Well,
What can you say about that video except that that is the biggest collection of NPF's I've ever seen! Bryan, you are right, why are they approaching from river right when clearly the flow is from river left. There is so much wrong with that video I couldn't watch but about 5 of those idiots. The obstacle that is Class I stuff for sure. Anyone having watched Bill Mason and paddled for a little while would have made that bottleneck a yawner.
That having been said, I have slammed headlong into a rock at that speed, my bow person clinging to the gunwales for dear life instead of drawing to get us around the corner. I was thrown out of my seat, barked my shins on the thwart, and then went swimming. The boat hardly suffered a dent, and continued the trip with no problems. And that was a stemless boat. I agree with others who have said that you could have a puncture amidships from a sharp rock, so if you are building a whitewater stripper, lots of 6 oz glass and consider graphite on the outer layer. There are designs for running stuff up to Class III and Bill Mason took on some pretty impressive stuff in a wood and canvas beater. IF you enjoy showing off your scars, I'd say build a WW stripper!
Greg
What can you say about that video except that that is the biggest collection of NPF's I've ever seen! Bryan, you are right, why are they approaching from river right when clearly the flow is from river left. There is so much wrong with that video I couldn't watch but about 5 of those idiots. The obstacle that is Class I stuff for sure. Anyone having watched Bill Mason and paddled for a little while would have made that bottleneck a yawner.
That having been said, I have slammed headlong into a rock at that speed, my bow person clinging to the gunwales for dear life instead of drawing to get us around the corner. I was thrown out of my seat, barked my shins on the thwart, and then went swimming. The boat hardly suffered a dent, and continued the trip with no problems. And that was a stemless boat. I agree with others who have said that you could have a puncture amidships from a sharp rock, so if you are building a whitewater stripper, lots of 6 oz glass and consider graphite on the outer layer. There are designs for running stuff up to Class III and Bill Mason took on some pretty impressive stuff in a wood and canvas beater. IF you enjoy showing off your scars, I'd say build a WW stripper!
Greg
" Choose to chance the rapids, Dare to dance the tide..."
Well that sure was interesting , all those people and only a couple of paddlers. I would take my strippers down that . When people ask me how delicate these canoes are I tell them you can do anything a canvass canoe can do plus a bit more. You need to treat them with respect. If you want to slam into rocks then buy a royalex. Another note would be that almost all those canoes in that video have keels. I have always said that a good canoe does not need a keel. If you plan on building a canoe that will be used on moving water don't put a keel on it Thanks for the video , I needed a laugh today.
Willo.
Willo.