Question about stable models

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Corky Scott
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Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:56 pm

Question about stable models

Post by Corky Scott »

We own a cedar strip Winisk, which I finished this Spring. I spent a lot of time on it and it's gotten a lot of positive comments whenever we've had it out. The Winisk is a performance type hull and is 17.6 feet long, although mine ended up being slightly longer. I like the way it glides in the water and I have no doubt this is due to the length, asymmetric hull and narrow beam. Unfortunately it is also extremely tippy due to the "mild" V bottom and the afore mentioned narrow beam.

It is supposed to have good secondary stability and marginal primary stability. If what we are experiencing is marginal primary stability, I'd hate to experience poor primary stability.

My wife has had it with the canoe because of the need to be on guard at all times and also because she thinks it is too heavy. I haven't weighed it but I don't think it is excessively heavy.

My wife wants me to sell the Winisk and build something smaller and more stable. I've been looking at the 15 foot tandem designs of Bear Mountain Boat and have focused on the Freedom 15 and the Ranger 15.

I'm leaning towards the Freedom 15, I like the design and don't need the rocker described in the Ranger 15 but what is most important is the primary stability. Can anyone tell me if the Ranger 15 has primary stability?

I don't care anymore about low drag and great glide, I've found that they don't matter much when you are upside down, or when your wife is paralyzed with fear because every small movement causes the canoe to tip quickly to one side or the other.

We paddle empty, we don't go on camping trips, we canoe just to enjoy the outing, so adding ballast doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. We'd rather have a canoe that does what we want and doesn't scare us.

So are there Freedom 15 owners out there who can vouch for it?

Many thanks, Corky Scott
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Glen Smith
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Post by Glen Smith »

I do not have a Freedom 15 but you can view a model comparison through the chart at this link: http://www.bearmountainboats.com/compare_designs.htm You will see that the Freedom 15 and the Ranger 15 both have the same initial stability rating and they both can handle the same load limits.

For temporary ballast you can bring along some empty plastic bottles and fill them with water at the launch site. Place them in the center of the boat. Empty out the water when done paddling for the day.
Rick
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Post by Rick »

Corky,

Canoes with flat bottoms generally have the greatest amount of initial, or primary stability... IIRC, there was a design of this type in another book besides CanoeCraft (can't remember the title but the author was Gilpatrick).

A flat-bottomed canoe won't have the performance of arched hulls and the bottom will have to be thicker or reinforced with ribs to make up for the rigidity that a curved bottom creates. OTOH, if weight and performance aren't issues, and primary stability is, the flat-bottomed canoe could be the right choice.

There will probably be rentals available somewhere to try out beforehand to make sure that this is the type of hull you want... eg, an aluminum Grumman, or Old Town Charles River. IIRC, the White Guide (?) is the canoe in Gilpatrick's book, it'll need to be scaled down to some smaller size.

PS... I'm commenting here on what I've read previously in other posts, so maybe somebody could provide info if the names are wrong.
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Patricks Dad
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Post by Patricks Dad »

I finished a Freedom-15 in April. It is quite stable and I enjoy paddling it. It's not as fast as the Redbird (which is longer, narrower -- and lighter). But I do like the Freedom 15 and would recommend it. It was also fairly easy to build (no excessive recurve or tumblehome to deal with when stripping or bending gunwales).

Good luck!

P.S. Having a wife that is encouraging you to build another canoe is great. Keep her.
Randy Pfeifer
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Big Woody
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Post by Big Woody »

I also have a question about "unstable" models.
I'm building a Hiawatha. I have If I recall correctly a 2003 printing of Canoecraft. It says that the Hiawatha was redrawn in 1999 by Steve Killing to provide more stability and other refinements.

In the chart at http://www.bearmountainboats.com/CanoeTechnical.htm
It Indicates the Hiawatha has a 'Stability Factor' of 88. Which relative to most of the other canoes is less stable in the roll axis. My question is: Is this the data for the newly redrawn and more stable Hiawatha, or the data for the older less stable version? And where would both versions be numerically on that same chart. Does anybody know this? It would make my day to find out for sure.

:thinking

Also, Besides mounting my seats lower, Is there anything else that can be done to add stability to my canoe? I have it all stripped up, but not glassed yet.
I have prior Boy Scout canoe training, and good balance, but would prefer a relaxing ride where I never end up swimming in the water on accident.
Steve Killing
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Hiawatha Stability

Post by Steve Killing »

The stability factors presented are for the current shape of the Hiawatha. When it was refaired it was a small change that increased the stability marginally, but there was no attempt to change the general character of the boat.

Those that build the boat love the aesthetics of the sheerline in particular and feel it is worth the trade off in lower stability. You are right that lowering the seats has a significant effect, and kneeling to lower your center of gravity will also help stability.

If you are skilled paddler I have no doubt you will enjoy the boat.

Cheers,
Steve Killing
Big Woody
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Post by Big Woody »

Thanks Steve. It is great to get the answer right from the source.

I was attracted to the traditional aesthetics of the Hiawatha's sheerline. The other canoe I considered building was Carrying Place's 'Grey Owl'. In the end their plans cost $70 Canadian and Canoecraft cost $16 US. My wallet told me the book was a better deal.
In retrospect I now think I could have built up and cut that same sheerline on just about any 15 ft. canoe design, unless I'm missing something that would prevent it.

When I'm done I'll see if I can easily keep it upright with my wife or kids on board. If It is too difficult I guess I'll have to make an outrigger(canoe training wheels) for it. :laughing
Or I can just hang it from the ceiling in my living room. There is a nice bent rib wooden canoe hanging from the ceiling in my wife's second favorite restaurant.

Although most of my usage will be on flat water. Maybe it is builder's remorse, but I'm thinking I might have needed the extra weight capacity and stability of the Grey Owl more than the reduced hydrodynamic drag of the Hiawatha when I'm not canoeing solo.

The FAA's standard man is 170 Lbs. I currently excel that mediocrity by another 50 Lbs. of muscle, brains, excess body hair, and a wee bit of stored energy. So when I start piling other people and gear into my canoe, they might cause a weight problem.

I did add another full length strip to the original center depth, and plan to make laminated gunwales that will cover over the edge of the stripping another 1/4".

I guess I'll need to finish building the canoe, put it in some water and see how it handles firsthand before I start second guessing my choice.
duncan
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Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia

Post by duncan »

As far as the Ranger's initial stability is concerned, I expect you (and your wife) will find it very tippy. I've never paddled one, but I've been in plenty of Prospectors and I understand that "Ranger" is the name for the 15 foot version of the same line of canoes as the Prospector.

The Prospector, and likely then the Ranger, has a lot of final stability, and there is a lot to be said for the very important low initial stability, but it probably won't make your wife happy!

I believe the Bob's Special is a fair amount wider and flatter for the same length. Also, it was originally called the 50 lb special back when Chestnut first made them from cedar and canvas, so there is a precedent for lightness.

Hope this helps, good luck!

Duncan
Big Woody
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Post by Big Woody »

I'm too proud to kneel. Actually it just doesn't sound really comfortable for extended periods. I'd just like to sit in the stern seat without the front two thirds of the canoe up in the air like in the cartoons. What does that do for performance?

I went solo in the back of an otherwise empty double ended canoe with a trolling motor and it got pretty tricky during tight powered cornering. When the prop was sideways it kept trying to roll the canoe as power was applied.
duncan
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Post by duncan »

Sitting in the stern seat with the front 2/3 of the canoe up in the air will do a few things performance wise.

The profile of the canoe as it cuts through the water will be very blunt, as the sharp bow is raised up with the wide hull becoming your cut water. This will require significantly more paddling effort.

Also, the waterline is much shorter so you will find that the canoe is difficult to track straight, but easy to yaw. As you are sitting, your centre of gravity will be a little high. That might not be much of an issue on its own, but if you sit in the stern seat you are in the narrowest part of the canoe possible. The stability when solo and sitting in the stern seat will be VERY low, through the combination of the narrow hull so close to the end of the canoe and compounded by the high center of gravity. This was undoubtedly a factor in the roll you felt from the trolling motor during turns.

Whenever a canoe rides lower on one end or another it will be inclined to pivot about the lowest point by the wind or current, and also by every paddling stroke you make. This pivoting may be slight but it can also be significant, especially if there is a change in the wind or if you cross into a different current line.

What can you do?

Usually, when paddling solo the canoe is turned around and the paddler sits on the bow seat, facing aft. This places your weight closer to centre, improving the trim. Also, you are near the widest and most stable part of the canoe. Another important factor is that more of your paddle stroke's power will result in forward motion, rather than turning motion. That means steering is easier and paddling less tiring.

If you have any gear with you, try to place it somewhere so that it balances off your weight to keep the canoe level in the water.

I hope this helps. Kneeling makes it much easier to use your whole body strength, as well as improving stability, but you should be able to get by in ordinary circumstances sitting on the seat if you are attentive to the trim and sit in the wider parts of the canoe.

-Duncan
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