Decked Touring Canoe

[TommyC1]

The boat I want doesn't exist. Guess I'll have to build it.

It's similar to a touring kayak with decks, bulkheads, hatches and a small cockpit that can be sealed up with a skirt so that it stays dry in surf and rolling.
But it's not a kayak, it's a canoe, wide enough to be reasonably steady with a 200 lbs guy kneeling on a 9" saddle. Still got to be fast though. Don't want to wear myself out chasing those kayaks.
It's a day boat not an expedition boat. Nope a Kruger design won't do. My intended use is daytrips and surf play.
I figure the best way to get there is to pick a solo design, cut down the shear and add a deck and bulkheads.
So I wonder... how would the 17' Solo Tripper do in wind and waves? I know some designs have trouble with quartering waves. Is there another solo design that might do better?
The other thing I wonder is how much can I cut down the shear before I radicaly reduce the bouancy in the ends?
Thoughts? Suggestions?
Thanks
Tommy

[Glen Smith]

There are a few decked canoes at this link: http://dragonflycanoe.com/d_canoes/contents.htm. Maybe not what you are looking for, but might give you some info and ideas. :rolling eyes

[Rick]

So I wonder... how would the 17' Solo Tripper do in wind and waves? I know some designs have trouble with quartering waves.

Which are the designs with this problem?

[TommyC1]

I had a Current Designs Solstice Sea Kayak. It was a big reasonably fast boat.17' 7" x 24" arched hull, minimal rocker. In quartering waves it realy wanted to turn parallel to the troughs. I replaced it with a CD Caribou. 17' 8" x 22" hard chines, moderate rocker. Much better in any waves.
I'm told that some of the long fast Wenohna canoes have similar characteristics to the Solstice. I'm hoping to build somrthing more like the Caribou.

[Rick]

Could the Caribou have performed better in waves because it was a lower-volume boat sitting more deeply in the water - I don't paddle kayaks much but a higher-volume canoe with fuller ends is typically moved around by the waves more violently, when compared to one with lower volume and finer ends. A more rounded bottom will absorb wave energy more easily than one that tends toward flatness.

If the right type of hull for your needs is already known, you could take the chance and create your own table of offsets to design a canoe that will perform more or less the same, without actually copying the Caribou. Or modify an existing Caribou so that it'll fit your needs.

Hull length will play a part in how easily waves turn the boat. I've paddled a short, highly rockered whitewater kayak in lake waves and that's turned by wave crests very easily. While the broaching would be a problem in a open canoe, it's less so on an enclosed kayak.

Long, narrow hulls seem to be turned less easily by waves generally, although that will also depend on wave height and spacing, and if wave crests are far enough apart, they could easily turn a longer canoe. Cliff Jacobsen, an expert in Minnesota, also feels that longer, straighter-tracking hulls are less easily turned by quartering waves than shorter, more highly rockered hulls. Others in the opposite camp feel that a shorter, rockered hull can be more easily controlled, and brought back on course if the need is there.

I've read just the opposite from what you've heard about Wenonah's hulls - the long, narrow hulls will maintain course well in rough lake waters. The Minnesota II, over 18 feet long and with zero rocker, got great reviews in Canoe and Kayak magazine for it's performance in wind and waves.

It also depends on how you paddle - some like a responsive and controllable hull, so shorter lengths and more rocker are wanted. Others like to pour on the coal, and a more efficient hull is preferred, long and narrow with less rocker. You'll probably do best by going with what's worked well for you, and pick a canoe along those lines.

Let us know what you eventually decide on!

Rick

[Bryan Hansel]

Hmmm. Interesting thread. I paddle two solo canoes: a Bell Wildfire and a Magic. You might say that these two canoes are on two different sides of the solo canoe extreme from each other. The Wildfire turns on a dime and the Magic goes straight and fast. I'd had both in very big waves for a canoe and to me both do well. I don't find that either is pushed around by the wind or waves than the other, but.... On a fall trip to the BWCA, this year, I let my significant other paddle the Magic, because in the wind I figured it would be easier for her to handle than the Wildfire. As it turned out, she got pushed around allot and myself in the Wildfire had no problem going straight. She doesn't paddle solo often, and I do all the time. I imagine it all has to do with skill instead of boat design in my case. The Magic has no problem keeping up with friends in touring boats. I used to paddle with two guys, one had a Perception Eclipse (a pretty fast crusing kayak), and the other a Romany. I had no problem in my Magic keeping up with them using a canoe paddle. I imagine with a kayak paddle I would have blown them both out of the water. But I would never use a kayak paddle in a canoe. :smile

So, if I get this straight, you want a canoe that you can kneel in and you want to deck it. What I don't understand is what you mean by surf. Do you mean real ocean surf or do you mean waves generated by wind? What size waves are you expecting? If you want a canoe to play in ocean surf, I'd think about something rockered at about 14' or 15'. A Freestyle type design may be a good choice. For running down kayaks, you're going to need something fast or just use a kayak paddle. :very confused In my experience with canoes and kayaks, these (fast vs. play) seem to be two different boats.

[TommyC1]

Yeah it gets tough trying to define exactly what I want :rolling eyes
I have not paddled a Magic. From what I've heard it might be a good hull for what I want.
IMO a Wildfire doesn't turn on a dime. My Wavesport Foreplay (whitewater kayak converted to C1) turns on a dime. My Mad River Outrage turns on a nickle. From the day I spent in a Wildfire I'd say it turns on a silver dollarand my Carribou turns on the end of a beer can. To your point yes, in general you loose speed as you gain manuverabilty. OTOH My old Solstice needed a dinner plate to turn and it was no faster than the Caribou.

I picked up a Swift Osprey last fall. This summer I'll put in some floatbags and try it out. I expect it will be plenty manuverable like the Wildfire. I'm not sure how it will do for speed. I'm hoping to be able to demo a Magic and a Merlin II as well. I've got to say though the thought of cutting down and decking a nice Bell leaves me feeling a bit queasy. If the Osprey works out I can get plans and build it with my mods. Or If I can find out enough about some of the Bear Mt boats I might try the same thing with one of those.

Oh yeah ocean waves, breaking surf, nothing huge and to me 6' is pretty close to huge. :frightened

[Bryan Hansel]

If you want to see turn on a dime, you should see Karen Knight in a Flashfire. I guess when I say turn on a dime, I mean when doing Freestyle moves. My Necky Blunt turns much faster with just sweep strokes.

If you talk to the guys at Bell, they can give you the name of a guy who converts their canoes into decked sailing canoes, maybe he could chop it if you like one.

A wood strip Merlin may suit your needs if you add some rocker into it, but the problem in my experience with canoes is that finding one for ocean surf that performs well in those conditions (not that I've ever paddled a canoe is ocean surf. Up to 3 foot wind waves is the biggest I've been in in a canoe), and to have that same canoe keep up with kayaks is going to be a very tough. Someone with more knowledge about designing canoes and kayaks than I, please, speak up, but I expect that the extra width of a canoe that provides the stability for a high center of gravity also creates a greater wetted surface, which in turn will slow you down compared to a kayak of similar length. And because of this you may have a few extra design options in a kayak hull, like adding in extra maneuverability for ocean surf before it slows the kayak down too much. (I.e. a kayak like the Necky Chatham while great for surf isn't the fastest kayak out there, but is still much faster than My Wildfire or your Outrage, which would both do well in the surf. The Magic is faster than the Chatham, but I wouldn't want to be in Ocean surf in my Magic. It just doesn't react very quickly.) But Naval architecture is not my fortay. I may change my mind on this if I spent time in ocean surf, but the biggest water that I have around where I live is only Lake Superior, which I'm actually looking at right now.

In looking through Adney's Bark Canoe book, you'll see a couple of canoes that were designed for ocean travel. They generally are large canoes, but you may be able to scale them to the size you need. You may also want to check out the replica of an 1850s Koniagmiut kayak in the Danish National Museum built by Harvey Golden, who paddled a good distance in it. You can kneel in this kayak, and plans are available in a back issue of Sea Kayaker Magazine.

http://www.traditionalkayaks.com/Kayakr ... Ib160.html

I'm very interested in what you end up building, especially if you manage to come up with a new type of surf-touring-ocean-canoe-thingy.

[TommyC1]

I had the pleasure of taking a Freestyle class with Karen last summer. She made her Flashfire turn on that dime and the did the same thing with my friends 16' Lotus! Seems like I remeber her doing the same thing in a 17' Dagger Merridian a few years ago in a kayaking class. Sometimes it's the boat. Sometimes its the paddler.

You may well be right about not finding a fast manuverable hull. I choose to remain optimistic.
Lloyd Bowles says in his S&G Osprey he has no trouble outrunning his son in an Advantage. Boat or paddler(s)?
So when I found a Swift Osprey for a decent price I grabbed it
It seems to handle the wind and some current pretty well. Might be a little squirrely for open water. I can't get more than one or two strokes without either correcting or switching. (boat or paddler?) Haven't had it out with any fast paddlers so I don't know about the speed.
Then I read on CCR where Lloyd says the S&G tracks a bit stiffer than the original Osprey. IMO that might be good for what I want.
So I'll run my Osprey out on the coast a bit this summer and try to get a feel for it. If I still like it I'll probaly build a modified S&G with decks etc.
If not? Well I'm still looking around.