Strongback, Forms, Strips, Gunnels, Seat for sale.

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BuffaloDick
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Location: Buffalo, MN USA

Strongback, Forms, Strips, Gunnels, Seat for sale.

Post by BuffaloDick »

I built a 38 Special last year and my brother had intended to build another one so we purchased materials for two canoes. We have since moved on to other things and have changed our plans and have the following items for sale.
(1) 16 foot box beam telescoping strongback 8" square and all station brackets and bolts. Can be reduced to 8 foot sections for transport. This is a very nice strongback.
(2) DUE TO THE PLANS COPYRIGHT- THE STATION MOLDS FOR THE 38 SPECIAL ARE NOT AVAILABLE FOR SALE.
(3) More than enough basswood and mahogany and lace wood strips for a canoe. Aprox 1/4" x 7/8" x 8-1/2 feet long. These are square edge but could be coved easily.
(4) Finished mahogany gunnel strips with scuppers cut in ready to install on a 38 Special.
(5) Rawhide laced mahogany seat morticed and tenon ready to cut to length.
(6) Mahogany thwarts (2) short and (1) long.
All items are very well done.
I live about 30 miles west of Minneapolis in Buffalo,MN.
Please let me know if you are interested and I can contact you via e-mail.
Thanks!
Dick
Last edited by BuffaloDick on Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
BuffaloDick
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Erik, Belgium
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Post by Erik, Belgium »

hi Dick,
just wanted to mention that you 're not entitled to sell the stations of your 38-SPL after you built it, UNLESS you bought 2 plans from Al Gustavson on http://www.northwestcanoe.com/.
You may build ONE canoe from ONE set of plans.

visit www.QAJAQ.be if you 'd like to see my 38-SPL.
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Patricks Dad
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Post by Patricks Dad »

I would think that he would be able to sell them as long as the buyer had bought a set of plans, right?
Randy Pfeifer
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hoz
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A caveat and a question?

Post by hoz »

Patricks Dad wrote:I would think that he would be able to sell them as long as the buyer had bought a set of plans, right?
I agree with a caveat. BuffaloDick can do what he wants with the forms. He can sell them, give them away or cut them up for firewood.

Anyone who obtains them from him should also purchase a set of plans (or a licence to build another boat). I am not sure about Al but John Winters will give an additional licence to build for $35.00, no plans just a licence. Whether they do or not is a matter of ethics. Some do, some don't. It's the same with downloading "free" movies or music.

These canoe designs are the intellectual property of their designers, the designers deserve the small fee for additional builds.

:applause

Now, what are you asking for this kit?
someday I'll fly, someday I'll soar
BuffaloDick
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Location: Buffalo, MN USA

Post by BuffaloDick »

Hi Everyone,
I was not thinking about copyrights when I posted my items for sale. I have since edited the station molds line in my previous post. I agree with what HOZ said above. If I was the designer or vendor of this canoe plan I would not want to loose sales because of plan sharing. I am not sure what to charge for this package. The trim parts alone are worth quite a bit in terms of time and the work is first class. Do you think $250.00 for an asking price is in the ballpark?
Thanks for any comment you may wish to leave!
Dick
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hoz
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Post by hoz »

Looks like a fair price to me. If I lived closer I'd buy the kit, a set of plans AND make a deal on the forms too!

:cool
someday I'll fly, someday I'll soar
Rod Tait

Post by Rod Tait »

As a designer that often sees plans shared with others, might I suggest that the seller collect the appopriate fee and send that to the company. That way you know it is done.
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hoz
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Post by hoz »

Rod Tait wrote:As a designer that often sees plans shared with others, might I suggest that the seller collect the appopriate fee and send that to the company. That way you know it is done.
I used to feel the same way.Then an irate fellow pointed out it wasn't HIS responsibility to collect fees for the designer. I would have considered it a common courtesy. I guess courtesy has gone the way of chivlary
Last edited by hoz on Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
someday I'll fly, someday I'll soar
Rod Tait

Post by Rod Tait »

This discussion comes up every so often on all the discusion boards with many feeling that they should not have to pay for used plans or forms.

Some companies, including ours, have considered changing the licence agreement that comes with their plans. It would be against the agreement to sell the plans or forms without the chance of penalty. We can not go after the buyer since we don't know who they are, so we may have to go after the seller who has agreed to the licence when purchasing.

Just a thought, but one might consider that if you sell your plans and forms and recover the cost of your original plans, you yourself did not pay for the plans.

I know of several companies that tell me that they have sent letters from lawyers to those that have broken the agreement. This usually gets a quick response in the form of the due fee.

It is a shame that it had to come to that.
BuffaloDick
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Post by BuffaloDick »

Hello,
I was just thinking about what has been said here about licensing of plans and copyrights. As I recall, the plans that I purchased from Al Gustafson did not have any legal language on them anywhere nor was there any documentation enclosed to that effect. The plans that I purchased for a Mattawa from Noahs did have language pertaining to licensing on them.
It seems that I probably am not restricted in what I can do with these plans and or forms as there was no agreement writen or implied.
Any thoughts on this?
Dick
BuffaloDick
Rod Tait

Post by Rod Tait »

I have purchased plans for boats that have no language written or implied regarding the number of boats that can be built from the plans. If it isn't written, I assume there is no restriction. But to be on the safe side as a commercial builder with a reputation to keep, I always ask anyways. It really is a small fee anyways.

If you can not find anything written, I would think that you are okay to do what you wish with the plans and forms.
Al Gustaveson
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Post by Al Gustaveson »

"You can teach ethics, but you can't make people live them."
Anon.

I guess that's the point isn't it ..? I have one client/builder who makes my NWCruiser over and over. Every time he does he sends me a $20 bill. He says "I owe you that" for making a great canoe. Now he is the exception. My personal belief is that when you are "going into production" you do owe something to the designer. When we do designs for Mad River or Bell Canoe there is an agreement up front that the designer gets X% of every canoe made OR he seels the plans outright to the manufacturer. If you are building two or three canoes for your family and friends that's something else. But broadcasting them out wholesale is simply dishonest to say the least.

All that being said, there is nothing I, or any one else, can do to require an unethical person to act ethicaly. Consider the copyright problems presently going on in the music business, or the software copy mills in China. It ain't right, but how can you demand ethics from a crook?

Al Gustaveson
Northwest Canoe Co. Inc.

Designers & Builders of Fine Canoes, Kayaks & People Powered Watercraft
Repairs, Restorations & Builders Supplies
Bell Canoes & Accessories
Granite Gear Packs
Voyageur Canoe Equipment & Gear

308 Prince Street
Saint Paul, MN. 55101
651-229-0192
al@northwestcanoe.com
651-229-0192
Al Gustaveson
Northwest Canoe Co. Inc.
Saint Paul, MN.
BuffaloDick
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Location: Buffalo, MN USA

Post by BuffaloDick »

Hello,
I personally agree with what Al has to say on this matter and that is exactly why I edited the station mold line on my original post.
I also sell plans of my own creation for a product entirely unrelated to canoe building. I have licensing language right on the bluprint sheets. My intention is to not allow commercial exploitation of my work. If I sell to an individual and he decides to build a couple of copies from my design, that is one thing that I can't I can't enforce and it is not too bothersome to me, but if an industrial manufacturer decides to go into business producing a product directly from my design, that is an entirely different matter.
I think this has been a good discusion on this topic.
Dick
BuffaloDick
Tom in MN
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Copyright and plans

Post by Tom in MN »

Dick,

I have no reason to believe you were trying to make a profit off of Al's plans. I think that you did not realize that throwing the plans in with the whole package was anything wrong. In fact, I think you are entitled to something for the forms as you have costs involved in the plywood and time to cut them out. You bought paper with lines on it from Al, but you were advertising something completely different. I agree it is hard to separate the intellectual property of the shape of the lines from the physical pieces of plywood that are cut to the same shapes. If your price was commensurate with the costs of materials and time, you have done nothing wrong to sell the forms in my opinion. If what you were asking for them was unreasonably above yor time and materials, the it begs the question "were you profiting from someone elses copyright", then you would likely be in violation of copyright laws and would owe Al the cost of the plans. If so, that is wrong and I also agree with what Al said. It is the responsibility of the guy who builds the canoe from the forms to honor the copyright, and Al's responsibility to police his copyrighted product.


I also disagree with what an earlier post stated. If I buy a set of plans from a designer, I can build as many canoes for my personal use as I want from those plans. I have purchased plans in the past from various sources (not Northwest Canoes) and have never read or signed any agreement limiting me to one canoe for one purchased set of plans. Nor am I aware of any patent or copyright laws limiting me as long as it is for personal use. If I agree to the one canoe one plans agreement, then I am bound by contract law to abide by the contract. Copyrights and patents do not protect personal use, they only protect commercial use of the patent or copyright. If I have purchased one set, I have purchased the rights to use it as often as a wish. This is like saying if you buy a book, you can only read it once! Hogwash! The guy that is sending Al a check $20 is either being generous, or is selling the canoes and has a legal obligation to compensate the copyright holder for every commercial sale of the plans, via a finished canoe.

If you have not found a buyer for your stuff, I will consider buying it, including the forms and if I decide to build the canoe at some time down the road, I'll send Al a check for his plans, once. You can reach me at tkladar@msn.com.
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hoz
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Post by Steve Killing

Post by hoz »

http://www.bearmountainboats.com/phpbb2 ... =copyright

Steve Killing
Joined: 12 May 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:49 pm Post subject: Royalties Reply with quote
Hello All,

If you buy Bear Mountain plans you are entitled and encouraged to build a boat. If you wish to build another boat of the same design, or your friend wants to build a boat using your forms, the little note on the corner of the drawings says - "please send a $40 royalty for each addtional boat built to these plans". That is not much to ask, but it does let Bear Mountain continue to operate their fine business. Another solution is to purchase another set of plans, if you have worn out the first.

For boats built from Canoecraft or Kayakcraft offsets, the same applies, you are welcome to build one, for the second of the same design there is a royalty due.

Cheers and thanks,
Steve Killing
someday I'll fly, someday I'll soar
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