Dye vs Stain and water based vs alcohol based

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2Lloyd

Dye vs Stain and water based vs alcohol based

Post by 2Lloyd »

In "Kayaks You Can Build" Ted Moores uses a alcohol based analine dye on the Coho.

I believe he uses some other kind of dye on the Mill Creek.

Locally I find MInwax water based stains available.

Are stains different than dyes?

I believe that the advantage of alcohol based dye is that it is non grain raising.

Is this true? Is this a large advantage
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Juneaudave
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Post by Juneaudave »

I haven't read the new book, but here's a link to the Greenval site with a good article on staining http://www.greenval.com/FAQstaining.html
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Doug
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Post by Doug »

From Lee Valley;

Aniline Dyes

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(56Z01.01+)

Aniline dyes are mixed with water to form brilliant, fade-resistant stains characterized by deep, even penetration and excellent clarity. The stains may be applied with a brush or a spray gun as well as with a cloth.

Powders should be stirred before mixing for even particle distribution. The usual proportion of powder to water is one ounce to one quart, and this mix can be diluted to the desired density of tint. Colors can be mixed to obtain any shade, but remember never to intermix stains of different bases. You can mix water stain with water stain, but not oil stain with water stain, and so on.

Use clean, soft water to mix your stain to minimize the effect of metal salts on the color. Distilled water is the safest, otherwise soft rainwater is good. Heat the water, but do not boil it. Use a glass, earthenware, or stainless-steel vessel, but never iron or aluminum containers. Stir the dye powder into the hot water, not vice versa. It should be completely dissolved in about fifteen minutes. Allow the mix to cool.

If you saturate your stain solution and get precipitate settling out, add water. If the solution gets chilled and the powders crystallize, heat to re-dissolve the powder.

For best results when mixing color, avoid artificial light. Stain during daytime in good natural light, away from drafts or heat, and with good ventilation. Always test the color on a piece of scrap before applying it to a project.

The oils and resins in some softwoods will cause uneven stain penetration. Clean this wood first with wood alcohol.

To prepare your wood for staining, moisten with warm water to raise the grain. When it dries, sand with fine paper. You will get better results if you use new garnet paper and sand at a slight angle to the grain. This will cut off the fibers instead of just pressing them back down. Finish with strokes along the grain. Repeat the wetting and sanding as often as necessary to remove the fuzz, then clean the wood.

When applying the stain, special attention must be given to end grain, because this part of the wood will absorb more stain than the rest. To prevent this, you can apply a thin coat of lacquer or sealer over the bare end grain, and this will permit even absorption when you apply the color. Or, wet all of the end grain before you stain, and stain with the end grain wet. Wipe immediately and repeat if necessary to get your tint.

Sponge the other surfaces with a weak solution of the stain. Let it dry, then sand smooth, but not deep enough to cut through to the wood. Clean, then apply a regular coat of stain with a stiff, wide brush. Use long strokes, working until the color is even. Take the excess stain off the brush then go back over the work to pick up any surplus, again being careful not to streak the color. If spots will not take the stain as well as the rest of the surface, open the pores of the wood by rubbing with 3/0 steel wool when the stain is wet. Work over any drippings or else they will show when dry.

The stain dries for recoating in twelve hours. You may find the grain will still lift after applying the stain. A thin wash of shellac or lacquer applied after the stain has dried will make the fibers stiff and brittle so they can be sanded more readily. It will also help prevent cutting the stain on the edges and harder parts of the wood. Ammonia, bichromate of potash, or acetic acid (vinegar) is sometimes added to a stain solution to stiffen the fibers, but this is not necessary. Successively finer grits of sandpaper should be used with each sanding.

If needed, filler can be applied between stain coats and after shellac or lacquer. Apply filler, wipe with burlap or newspaper, and rub with boiled linseed oil to pack. Wipe off and allow 24 to 48 hours to dry, then apply a sanding sealer. Finish your piece as desired. For projects exposed to intense sunlight, apply a UV-inhibitor top coat (available at local hardware stores).

If you are using a water-based finish as a top coat, such as lacquer or urethane, a sealer should be applied first or the aniline color may bleed.

Aniline dye powders should be stored in airtight containers so they do not absorb moisture. Stain solutions should be mixed only in the amount needed for a project because the color will deteriorate over a long period of time. If you must store a water stain solution, use a glass container
"Some people hear the song in the quiet mist of a cold morning..... But for other people the song is loudest in the evening when they are sitting in front of a tent, basking in the camp fire's warmth. This is when I hear it loudest ...." BM
2Lloyd

Stain or Dye Recommendation Needed too

Post by 2Lloyd »

The Lee Valley and Green Valley advice are both excellent; and I thank each of you.

I visited a couple of stores and found that I could by Minwax, Bhelan, and TransTint locally.

I haven't see anything on TransTint before today (http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/br ... 2-oz..HTML) but TransTint has the best red I've seen.

My biggest concern with this stain or dye process is adding the seal coat, as "Kayaks You Can Build" recommends and then sanding sufficiently for the fiber glass to adhere, but not so much that I go through the seal coat and take out the stain.
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Bud
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Post by Bud »

2Lloyd, no matter what advice you get from the forum, the best thing to do is try the process for yourself on scrap to see how and/or if it is going to work as expected. This will also help you perfect your technique and troubleshoot unforeseen problems.
Good luck,
Bud
2Lloyd

Roy G. Biv where are you?

Post by 2Lloyd »

I agree with you Bud, as I anxiouxly await delivery of the kit (shipped Tuesday) and I believe I'll buy some stains today.

However, each day I wake up with another idea and if not careful will have the full selection from several companies. :D

The most striking boat I've seen was a black boat with a yellow band around the deck edge.

The design currently in my mind is orange and blue, likely this from my years in Syracuse.

I do believe I can make great use of BB's like this to find out if I can rule out some stains or dyes without my own trial ... cut down on the solution space.
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Erich
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Post by Erich »

2Lloyd
We have tried stains and dyes on our kayaks. Stains will last longer than dyes. Dyes of bright colours will fade quite fast in the sun. My kayak deck is pale where once the colour was vibrant. The drawback to stains is the available colours. Dyes are nice to try but the end result will be a faded boat. If you want a black finish you would do well with the graphite compound from West Epoxy. Just my two cents worth. Regards, Erich.
2Lloyd

I'm doing both a dye and a stain

Post by 2Lloyd »

I chose a Behlen blue dye as the dominent color and a Minwax Orange stain as the color for the outside deck panels.

This will certainly give me a measure of how long dyes and stains last.

And when they fade it will be time for blue and orange paint.
Karl Huebner
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Post by Karl Huebner »

So, how did the dyes and stain work out?

Karl Huebner
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Bryan Hansel
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Post by Bryan Hansel »

Woah! Old post. How about this for dye?
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Last edited by Bryan Hansel on Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
JNewman
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Post by JNewman »

I had been planning on using dark dyes on some narrow strips for highlight strips and to make a chevron type pattern using pine and a piece of stained cedar. After reading these posts I am rethinking this plan. Has anyone tried this?
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Glen Smith
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Post by Glen Smith »

JNewman wrote:I had been planning on using dark dyes on some narrow strips for highlight strips and to make a chevron type pattern using pine and a piece of stained cedar. After reading these posts I am rethinking this plan. Has anyone tried this?
I think you should repost your question on the "Builders' Forum" section to get some response.
mbolton
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Good colorfast dye

Post by mbolton »

WDLockwood dyes are used by the woodenboat guys and from what I've seen experienced, it does hold up extremely well.
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