Hello,
I am seeking advice regarding alternate glues to epoxy resin.
I worked for a time in boatbuilding and used epoxy intensively for a period of 6 months. One morning I developed a very nasty rash on my hands and face and I developed a complete intolerance to the stuff. I can no longer use or work with epoxy resin – this includes sanding set resins, I had to give away boat building altogether. I am a carpenter by trade; however I no longer work in the industry.
As I have a reasonably well equipped work shop, and enjoy paddling open Canadian canoes, I am contemplating building a strip cedar canoe. I have purchased plans from Bear Mountain boats for a 16 foot Prospector canoe.
The initial construction uses only yellow carpenter’s glue which I have no problem with. However the stems are steamed and then glue laminated with epoxy, I will be able to wrangle some friends into laying up the exterior and interior glass sheaths, what I am concerned about is the faring process as this will involve sanding resin.
Beyond wearing a space suit, can you offer any advice regarding safe usage – oh and by the way I can’t wear latex gloves as they also cause a reaction.
Also, I was wondering if there was a less toxic option to epoxy for glue laminating timber. I have carved a paddle out of Victorian Ash and am hoping to glue laminate a very hard and resilient Australian species called Gidgee (an acacia) to the tip for impact resistance. I thought I would test the waters with this small project before I contemplate the canoe.
A friend of mine suggested resorcinol, but having read the technical specs on this product I am less than eager to try it.
Regards
Stuart
Melbourne Australia
Epoxy Resin Intolerance
Hi, Stuart,
Rather than building the cedarstrip, why not try a more traditional wood-and-canvas Prospector... here in Canada, these used to be built with glues such as Ambroid, which is similar to the glue used in building balsa wood model airplanes. The canvas canoe crowd are dedicated and some say that their canoes are preferable to the epoxy and fiberglass variety.
I believe the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association has info on how-tos, materials, etc.
http://www.wcha.org/
Rather than building the cedarstrip, why not try a more traditional wood-and-canvas Prospector... here in Canada, these used to be built with glues such as Ambroid, which is similar to the glue used in building balsa wood model airplanes. The canvas canoe crowd are dedicated and some say that their canoes are preferable to the epoxy and fiberglass variety.
I believe the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association has info on how-tos, materials, etc.
http://www.wcha.org/
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Stu
Epoxy Resin Intolerance
I had look at the site, very interesting. You make a good point, only I must confess to a bit of a love affair with the cedarstrip. Once I have explored all possible avenues I may be forced into an alternative.
Appreciate your thoughts though.
Incidently is there a post regarding cedarstrip builders developing this same intollerance during construction?
Appreciate your thoughts though.
Incidently is there a post regarding cedarstrip builders developing this same intollerance during construction?
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Dell Littlefield
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:29 am
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Rod Tait
hybrid construction
You could consider a "hybrid" which is a ribbed canoe like the cedar/canvas and plank the outside with strips similar to strip/epoxy and only glass the outside. The ribs will provide the strength on the inside.
Or you could consider a carvel planked boat with no epoxy at all.
Or you could consider a carvel planked boat with no epoxy at all.
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Chuck in Pa
- Posts: 17
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- Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
- Contact:
I think you may want to look into polyester resin.
A lot of people tout its shortcomings, but it was used with a lot of success for a long time in the boatbuilding industry. It smells and isn't as strong, or flexible, as epoxy, but I disagree with those who say it is more toxic. I think it just seems that way because of the smell.
Bondo is a wonderful, polyester based, fairing compound, and, once you've gained the ability to accutely change pot life you really wonder why they can't make epoxy like that.
I feel people have problems with polyester because they try to use it like epoxy, which it isn't. If you learn how to use it without trying to make it do all that same things, I don't think you should have a problem. Another nice part is that it costs a tenth of what epoxy does, so you can screw up more often learning how to use it.
-Chuck
A lot of people tout its shortcomings, but it was used with a lot of success for a long time in the boatbuilding industry. It smells and isn't as strong, or flexible, as epoxy, but I disagree with those who say it is more toxic. I think it just seems that way because of the smell.
Bondo is a wonderful, polyester based, fairing compound, and, once you've gained the ability to accutely change pot life you really wonder why they can't make epoxy like that.
I feel people have problems with polyester because they try to use it like epoxy, which it isn't. If you learn how to use it without trying to make it do all that same things, I don't think you should have a problem. Another nice part is that it costs a tenth of what epoxy does, so you can screw up more often learning how to use it.
-Chuck
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Juneaudave
- Posts: 522
- Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 12:42 pm
- Location: Juneau, Alaska
- Contact:
I share your intolerance, but not to the point that sanding cured epoxy bothers me. I just have to be real careful to avoid getting resin me (and that includes just picking up the cans of resin and hardner off the shelf). So I get by with latex gloves, barrier creme, and longsleeve shirts. I use regular capenters glue on strips and "Gorilla" polyurethane glue for waterproof joints like on paddles. Regarding the dust, I use West System epoxy and allow it to fully cure (7-10 days) before sanding, wear a good mask, and change clothes after a long sanding session. Even with the precautions, I still break out with a nasty rash at times, but its pretty localized. Takes about a week to clear up.
Some of the suggestions from the other members to avoid epoxy altogether are really good. The Cedar/Canvas construction is good, carvel planking or lapstrakes on a Whitehall pulling boat would be fun. If the epoxy from my latest cedar strip project gives me too much trouble, I'll definately look at some other construction methods.
Some of the suggestions from the other members to avoid epoxy altogether are really good. The Cedar/Canvas construction is good, carvel planking or lapstrakes on a Whitehall pulling boat would be fun. If the epoxy from my latest cedar strip project gives me too much trouble, I'll definately look at some other construction methods.
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Todd Bradshaw
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 8:16 pm
Chuck, polyester resin is in fact quite toxic and much of that toxicity is contained in the smell you mention. The fumes are quite truly poison. Whether it's more or less toxic than epoxy depends on how you want to look at it. The styrene in polyester (which produces much of the smell) is the same stuff that glue sniffers get high on and rot their brains with. It is also quite hard on some of your other internal organs (which you may need later). Unlike epoxy, much of the toxicity is released into the air around the boat as you do the glass work so really good masks and ventillation are very important. The fumes are also quite flamable - to the point of being explosive, and the catylist can cause severe burns.
Yes, you can build a stripper from polyester. I did it for years before we got epoxies made for the purpose. There are plenty of polyester formulas and some of them seem to be just as durable, flexible and impact or abrasion resistant as any epoxy I've seen. In some cases, I truly believe some of the polyester/glass layups were more abrasion resistant. The downfall tends to be their adhesion to wood. Most brands don't stick well and none are specifically formulated to stick well to, or properly seal wood. We ended up using a very specific resin (Techniglass 329-2) over a specific primer layer of laquer sanding sealer (Pratt&Lambert Vitroloiid Sealer - also quite toxic and explosive) that was applied as a binder between the bare wood and the resin. It took a lot of testing to get to that point and without that kind of testing you can generally expect delamination, water soaking into the core or both. It also might well take two or three boats to get the process down and get really good results. I have one polyester strip canoe out in my back yard that is about 27 years old and still doing fine, but given the option, epoxy systems are easier to use, safer and likely to last longer.
Unlike polyesters, the toxicity of epoxy is generally not floating around in the air during the application part of the process. Some folks are more prone to developing reactions to it than others, but even so, you pretty much have to repeatedly get it on you to develop a problem. Those who make a point of working cleanly usually don't have a problem, those that don't may find that they get to a point where they can't use it at all. and it's possible that that's the case here. Options might include trying different brands of epoxy, as there are big differences in the formulas used and there might be one which doesn't produce the reaction. As for sanding, the first thing to do is to schedule a long break (like several weeks) between glassing day and doing any sanding. The more the resin has cured, the less likely the dust is to cause a reaction. This and a vacuum-equipped sander might allow the use of a only partial space-suit. If the sensitivity is bad enough though, it still may be a problem. There are no guarantees but I don't think switching to polyester is a particularly good alternative. To someone with a really serious case of epoxy sensitivity, cedar, brass tacks, cotton canvas, enamel-based canvas filler and spar varnish may be the only safe way to enjoy building wooden canoes.
Yes, you can build a stripper from polyester. I did it for years before we got epoxies made for the purpose. There are plenty of polyester formulas and some of them seem to be just as durable, flexible and impact or abrasion resistant as any epoxy I've seen. In some cases, I truly believe some of the polyester/glass layups were more abrasion resistant. The downfall tends to be their adhesion to wood. Most brands don't stick well and none are specifically formulated to stick well to, or properly seal wood. We ended up using a very specific resin (Techniglass 329-2) over a specific primer layer of laquer sanding sealer (Pratt&Lambert Vitroloiid Sealer - also quite toxic and explosive) that was applied as a binder between the bare wood and the resin. It took a lot of testing to get to that point and without that kind of testing you can generally expect delamination, water soaking into the core or both. It also might well take two or three boats to get the process down and get really good results. I have one polyester strip canoe out in my back yard that is about 27 years old and still doing fine, but given the option, epoxy systems are easier to use, safer and likely to last longer.
Unlike polyesters, the toxicity of epoxy is generally not floating around in the air during the application part of the process. Some folks are more prone to developing reactions to it than others, but even so, you pretty much have to repeatedly get it on you to develop a problem. Those who make a point of working cleanly usually don't have a problem, those that don't may find that they get to a point where they can't use it at all. and it's possible that that's the case here. Options might include trying different brands of epoxy, as there are big differences in the formulas used and there might be one which doesn't produce the reaction. As for sanding, the first thing to do is to schedule a long break (like several weeks) between glassing day and doing any sanding. The more the resin has cured, the less likely the dust is to cause a reaction. This and a vacuum-equipped sander might allow the use of a only partial space-suit. If the sensitivity is bad enough though, it still may be a problem. There are no guarantees but I don't think switching to polyester is a particularly good alternative. To someone with a really serious case of epoxy sensitivity, cedar, brass tacks, cotton canvas, enamel-based canvas filler and spar varnish may be the only safe way to enjoy building wooden canoes.