Ok, I decided it was finally time to run my test. I know I put it off to long.
I glued up some strips, planed them somewhat flat and mixed up 2 to 1 epoxy to resin.
I'm using the raka127 with 610 and 606 hardeners.
I tried the fast hardner today just for kicks to see how long I had to deal with it before it started to heat up.
I'd say it took somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes before I started to feel warm, so I dumped it out and started spreading. Now my piece is small and I only mixed up 1.5oz of material to practice with so I know it's going to kick off quicker with a 3 or 6 oz batch, but.....
What I did notice is it didnt really kick off like I thought. I figure the garage must be close to 70 degrees. The thermostate is, or atleast seems to be off. Turn it up to 70/75 and it'll roast ya right out. Maybe it's because I like the cold I think it's warmer :).
So I should shoot for 70 degrees? What kind of pot life should I expect? When dumping it on the glass, do you typically dump and spread with a brush/squeege, or do you use the brush right out of the cup like in painting?
My plan is to do a sealer coat first. I was thinking of doing this tomorrow. Will I have a problem with the blushing? I noticed on my test strip that a lot of it sucked up, should I keep adding more till it stops? I know to sand lightly before putting on the glass if I'm going to do it before hand, wasn sure how much to put on for a sealer coat and am not 100% sure if I want to do it instead of just wetting it out when the glass goes on.
Larry is sending 3 3/4oz glass plus enough for a football piece on the bottom. I dont intend to use this boat for rough use of any kind, mainly for my fly fishing outings which are getting farther and fewer between these days due to being gone all summer, that and they are nice easy slow rolly polly places. He talked me into it is all I can say LOL! I have no expeince at all, so I went with his advice. I originally had 5 oz cloth which he doesnt sell anymore.
Anyways, any tips or tricks not mentioned in the books? Things you have found made it go smoother?
How many brushes do you typical use on a wet out session from start to finish? Do you prefer foam or bristles? Or do you typicall just use a squeege for the hole thing.
Can you tell I'm itching to start glassing :).
My father inlaw is going to give me a hand with this. We both have resperators, tyveks and the blue nitrile gloves. Anything else other then eye protection (we both wear glass's and both have safte glass's).
And it looks like my dust issue is coming out ok. I left the fans on all nite and there is almost nothing on the boat today. I do want to hang up some new plastic sheeting for walls as they are covered in dust, not quite sure how to deal with this part. new plastic and stir it up or just leave it alone and risk stirring it up anyways. I dont plan on varnishing in this area. My goal is to glass it and get it out of the garage adn take it to the wood shop on base, hopefully :D. My plan was to do my trim work and varnish there. There is more room, better dust control and I wont have to worry about being charged 15 bucks a day to use the condo's garage, ugg.
I hope the glass gets here before saturday, shew, I'm sweating it :shocked
lets talk about epoxy a bit and glassing
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Patricks Dad
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:11 pm
- Location: Warrenville, Illinois
sealer coat or not, either way, continue to put on epoxy until it stops sucking it up. Otherwise you will find that you've put it on unevenly and may see blotches. Personally, I'm a fan of not doing the sealer coat and wetting out both cloth and hull at the same time (esp with a lighter glass). I prefer a slower hardner given the choice. It makes the event a bit less hectic.
I can't give you any advice on temp or gel time with the epoxy you are using having never used that brand. I use a bristle brush to apply the epoxy but rely mostly on the squeege to smooth it out. the brush is really a tool to move the epoxy from the cup to the glass (some people pour it on and just use the squeege to move it around). I'm sure there are lots of ways to skin the cat. You will find that the 4 oz glass will be very flexible and easily moved around. It will nicely conform to curves. Also keep in mind that it will also be easy to introduce wrinkles.
I can't give you any advice on temp or gel time with the epoxy you are using having never used that brand. I use a bristle brush to apply the epoxy but rely mostly on the squeege to smooth it out. the brush is really a tool to move the epoxy from the cup to the glass (some people pour it on and just use the squeege to move it around). I'm sure there are lots of ways to skin the cat. You will find that the 4 oz glass will be very flexible and easily moved around. It will nicely conform to curves. Also keep in mind that it will also be easy to introduce wrinkles.
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canoeblderinmt
- Posts: 415
- Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:04 pm
- Location: Butte, MT
Dan,
I've built two canoes with RAKA and really like it. It is a thin epoxy that wets out well. Like Randy said, make sure you don't starve it, keep squeeging it until it won't take any more. I glassed my boat in very cold weather, and it never got above 60 in my shop, so I had LOTS of working time. It did kick off and cure fine, but later coats took up to two days. On the first coat (6 oz glass and 6 oz football all wet out together) I had to go back and add epoxy to a few spots where it was looking starved. I'm pretty sure I was using the 610, and I am very happy with RAKA and will use it on my future boats.
Greg
I've built two canoes with RAKA and really like it. It is a thin epoxy that wets out well. Like Randy said, make sure you don't starve it, keep squeeging it until it won't take any more. I glassed my boat in very cold weather, and it never got above 60 in my shop, so I had LOTS of working time. It did kick off and cure fine, but later coats took up to two days. On the first coat (6 oz glass and 6 oz football all wet out together) I had to go back and add epoxy to a few spots where it was looking starved. I'm pretty sure I was using the 610, and I am very happy with RAKA and will use it on my future boats.
Greg
" Choose to chance the rapids, Dare to dance the tide..."
Greg,
I did a test run last nite with the fast and regular epoxy. It went well. I could dimple though ever so slightly the surface with a finger nail a day later.
How long do you normally go before you do you're next coat? I think I'm sold on a sealer coat first, then wet out my foot ball piece and glass at the same time.
With the slow, do ya think if I did a sealer coat tonight, I'll be fine for glassing tomorrow? and doing success fill coats a 24 hours later? How about fast? Or a 50 50 mixture of the two. I wont have enough to do it with all slow, so have to use some fast and slow. And I'll have help I hope. My father inlaw is going to help, I think saturday is going to be a sick day, cough cough. Worried about blushing and having to wait to sand before going on. Just using today as a reference. My thought was to start tomorrow nite not tonight.
I'll have to use some of the fast epoxy somewhere so I was thinking of using it for the sealer coats inside and out, and using the slow for the glass wet outs.
Sound right to you? Or is my time off? I can heat the garage up more if need be so temp is not so much an issue as much as finding out where I should be.
UPS man should be here between 5 and 6, and I'll be ready for him when he comes ;).
I did a test run last nite with the fast and regular epoxy. It went well. I could dimple though ever so slightly the surface with a finger nail a day later.
How long do you normally go before you do you're next coat? I think I'm sold on a sealer coat first, then wet out my foot ball piece and glass at the same time.
With the slow, do ya think if I did a sealer coat tonight, I'll be fine for glassing tomorrow? and doing success fill coats a 24 hours later? How about fast? Or a 50 50 mixture of the two. I wont have enough to do it with all slow, so have to use some fast and slow. And I'll have help I hope. My father inlaw is going to help, I think saturday is going to be a sick day, cough cough. Worried about blushing and having to wait to sand before going on. Just using today as a reference. My thought was to start tomorrow nite not tonight.
I'll have to use some of the fast epoxy somewhere so I was thinking of using it for the sealer coats inside and out, and using the slow for the glass wet outs.
Sound right to you? Or is my time off? I can heat the garage up more if need be so temp is not so much an issue as much as finding out where I should be.
UPS man should be here between 5 and 6, and I'll be ready for him when he comes ;).
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canoeblderinmt
- Posts: 415
- Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:04 pm
- Location: Butte, MT
I glassed the outside of my boat a few weeks ago, and here is the thing I learned.
I didn't do a pre-coat and I was alone to do the mixing spreading and squeegeeing, and I found that there are color changes at all edges where I had to stop spreading to go mix another batch or squeegee.
So in the future, I WILL get somebody to help me AND I will do a pre-coat before putting on the glass to limit the color changes. That way I could just roll on the epoxy for that first coat, real quick like and not have to mess with creases, glass moving, squeegeeing, etc... for that first critical coat.
Once the first coat is on, I figure there is no more color change issue.
That said, the boat isn't by any means horrible to look at ... but I see these blemishes.
my 2 cents
cheers
Martin
Gatineau, QC
I didn't do a pre-coat and I was alone to do the mixing spreading and squeegeeing, and I found that there are color changes at all edges where I had to stop spreading to go mix another batch or squeegee.
So in the future, I WILL get somebody to help me AND I will do a pre-coat before putting on the glass to limit the color changes. That way I could just roll on the epoxy for that first coat, real quick like and not have to mess with creases, glass moving, squeegeeing, etc... for that first critical coat.
Once the first coat is on, I figure there is no more color change issue.
That said, the boat isn't by any means horrible to look at ... but I see these blemishes.
my 2 cents
cheers
Martin
Gatineau, QC
Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep. - Scott Adams
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I haven't hand many issue with my outside glassing on the two canoes I've done. The first had a lot of runs but I learned from those mistakes and the second canoe is 100% better.
The issue I do have is that on the first canoe, the inside glass ended up with quite a few (a dozen probably) bubbles under the glass that look plain awful to me. So when I glassed the interior on my second canoe I was determined not to let that happen. Well, I meticulously scanned the entire hull all during the process and worked all the bubbles out, when I was done at the end of the day, I went home very happy knowing I'd done a much better job. Well, when I came in the next morning I nearly cried. There were dozens of bubbles all over the bottom of the boat that had formed during the night as the epoxy was curing.
What the heck am I doing wrong? This second canoe is next to flawless (especially compared to the first), except for the horrible and very visible matter of bubbles under the glass right where everyone looks, in the bottom of the interior. I'm nearly ashamed of it.
The issue I do have is that on the first canoe, the inside glass ended up with quite a few (a dozen probably) bubbles under the glass that look plain awful to me. So when I glassed the interior on my second canoe I was determined not to let that happen. Well, I meticulously scanned the entire hull all during the process and worked all the bubbles out, when I was done at the end of the day, I went home very happy knowing I'd done a much better job. Well, when I came in the next morning I nearly cried. There were dozens of bubbles all over the bottom of the boat that had formed during the night as the epoxy was curing.
What the heck am I doing wrong? This second canoe is next to flawless (especially compared to the first), except for the horrible and very visible matter of bubbles under the glass right where everyone looks, in the bottom of the interior. I'm nearly ashamed of it.
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Patricks Dad
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:11 pm
- Location: Warrenville, Illinois
Any times that I've had bubbles they were related to places where I didn't quite get a crack filled properly. The epoxy, while viscus, will slowly seep into any cracks between strips. The air in those cracks has to go somewhere. In the case of glassing the outside, the air can exit the hull to the inside. In the case of glassing the inside (after the outside is already sealed, the air doesn't have an escape route. Hence the bubble. A very careful focus on stripping tightly up front will minimize the need to fill and a lot of attention to filling everything is important. After that, once you have the glass and epoxy on, you need to hover over it for several hours until it has set to ensure that anything you've missed can be addressed before the bubble forms (and gets solid).
If your bubbles are from some other source I'm not sure where that would be. Looking at your bubbles, does it seem reasonable that they came from gaps between strips?
If your bubbles are from some other source I'm not sure where that would be. Looking at your bubbles, does it seem reasonable that they came from gaps between strips?
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Glen Smith
- Posts: 3719
- Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 9:08 am
- Location: Baie-St-Paul, Quebec, Canada
There are other steps that can be taken to avoid bubbles such as: glass only as the temperature is falling, do not glass a boat near a window where sunlight can heat up the boat, if you are not sure that all cracks are filled you can apply a precoat to get them pretty well all sealed so no air can escape. Apply epoxy, spread it and remove excess in a manner that does not introduce air in through the weave of the cloth. Check back on your work about every 15 minutes for as long as it takes for the epoxy to set and this could take as much as 6 to 8 hours with some epoxies and conditions.
I work in my basement shop which has electric heating so I always turn the thermostat up a few degrees a couple of hours before glassing. When I start to apply epoxy, I turn the thermostat down a few degrees and then I turn it down a few more when the epoxy has all been applied. I haven't seen a bubble form on the last 8 boats I have built.
I work in my basement shop which has electric heating so I always turn the thermostat up a few degrees a couple of hours before glassing. When I start to apply epoxy, I turn the thermostat down a few degrees and then I turn it down a few more when the epoxy has all been applied. I haven't seen a bubble form on the last 8 boats I have built.
Glen,
So you're saying the sealer coat will help keep these bubbles to a minimum?
That with a fall temp garage should do the trick I hope. I did see some bubbles come out on my sealer coat which wasnt an issue at all. Went back tonight to see if it's dry (which it is but it's not hard enough to sand yet), it didnt have any bubbles....hopefully once the glass goes on tomorrow this holds true.
So you're saying the sealer coat will help keep these bubbles to a minimum?
That with a fall temp garage should do the trick I hope. I did see some bubbles come out on my sealer coat which wasnt an issue at all. Went back tonight to see if it's dry (which it is but it's not hard enough to sand yet), it didnt have any bubbles....hopefully once the glass goes on tomorrow this holds true.
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Patricks Dad
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:11 pm
- Location: Warrenville, Illinois
caution. If you had bubbles on the sealer coat which popped on their own (because there was no glass to contain the air), it's still possible that the gaps that provided the air to create those bubbles are not yet full of epoxy. If that is the case, another bubble can be created (and contained this time) when you glass. The only sure thing is to stick with the job until the epoxy has set up sufficiently to ensure that no more bubbles could be formed.
If your sealer coat is no longer tacky but still somewhat soft, you could put on the glass and avoid the sanding step (chemical bond rather than mechanical bond). One concern I've heard with sanded sealer coats is the possibility of sanding too much in some areas creating new "thirsty" portions of the hull which suck up more than expected epoxy during the glass wet out resulting in starved glass and blotchy appearance. Be sure that you still keep any eye on your glassing job to ensure that all areas get enough epoxy (even if you think it's more than deserved).
If your sealer coat is no longer tacky but still somewhat soft, you could put on the glass and avoid the sanding step (chemical bond rather than mechanical bond). One concern I've heard with sanded sealer coats is the possibility of sanding too much in some areas creating new "thirsty" portions of the hull which suck up more than expected epoxy during the glass wet out resulting in starved glass and blotchy appearance. Be sure that you still keep any eye on your glassing job to ensure that all areas get enough epoxy (even if you think it's more than deserved).
I don't have any kind of climate control in the shop, so not much option there. I think next time I'll try putting on a sealer coat before the cloth. Canoecraft tells you not to worry much about filling small gaps since the epoxy will fill it, so I never paid much attention to anything unless it was big enough to be obvious, especially on the interior where it's so darn hard to work the concave surface. I guess those small pockets of air must be the culprit though.
Will sanding out the bubbles and filling them with resin work? Or would that leave a large discolored area all the way around the bubble where the surrounding cloth is affected by the sanding?
Will sanding out the bubbles and filling them with resin work? Or would that leave a large discolored area all the way around the bubble where the surrounding cloth is affected by the sanding?
zpe,
I had some small pin head bubbles after some of my coats. I did take a scraper to the bumps and would just quickly go over to nock them down. Put on the next coat and you couldnt find them at all. I dont know if you have voids or not...and I wouldnt know the answer if you did. Just letting you know what worked on mine.
I had some small pin head bubbles after some of my coats. I did take a scraper to the bumps and would just quickly go over to nock them down. Put on the next coat and you couldnt find them at all. I dont know if you have voids or not...and I wouldnt know the answer if you did. Just letting you know what worked on mine.