Ok, I'm officially lost and need some help.
I've got 3 coats on, my stem and foot ball pieces are on and the stem pieces are just filled, the football piece was part of the initial wet down.
So the question is when do I sand to fair my stem reinforcement pieces? They are kind of gawdy to say the least. I cannot seem to find it in the literature I have.
When and how far do you take it? I'm afraid of going to far, getting into the glass and getting white spots. Is it possible to sand it down and avoid this?
Those tiny specs I've been getting are pin head size bubbles I for some reason am having troubles tipping off. They scrap off really easy. so as much of a pain as it is, it's not to big of a deal I hope.
The stem edges bothers me though.
Also wanted to know how to sharpen the proprep scraper. I can sharpen cabinet scrapers ok, but not the greatest, been working on that one in the off time between coats.
I'm also a bit concerned about pic 23. I cut through the glass trying to get the boogers even. Tried wiping it out with lacquer thinner and it still shows white, not bad but its there. Can this be remedied? I'll try and get it posted in the second post, not sure why they aint posting on here.
Here is some pics.
[img]http::]http://inlinethumb21.webshots.com/21780 ... 200Q85.jpg[/img]
hmm, when to sand? Kinda lost here.
hmm, when to sand? Kinda lost here.
Last edited by AkDan on Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
wierd, it didnt post all the pics.
That first pic isnt there, here it is, along with the link to my webshots http://community.webshots.com/user/lilhunter007
I put up a bunch more of these sites on that page....basicaly it's al lthe same thing, a unsightly edge I'd like to try and blend in.
This is the bothersom pic, cut through the glass.
[/img]
That first pic isnt there, here it is, along with the link to my webshots http://community.webshots.com/user/lilhunter007
I put up a bunch more of these sites on that page....basicaly it's al lthe same thing, a unsightly edge I'd like to try and blend in.
This is the bothersom pic, cut through the glass.
[/img]-
Glen Smith
- Posts: 3719
- Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 9:08 am
- Location: Baie-St-Paul, Quebec, Canada
Well Dan I hate to be so harsh but it looks like you did a pretty bad job with the extra glass layers. On the stems, did you use bias-cut strips (cut at a 45 degree angle) or just a straight cut strip of cloth? It looks like you did not use the bias-cut strips or you didn't get the cloth to lay flat and it looks like you have scraped or sanded through the cloth. I get the impression that you glassed this boat following instructions that you did not fully understand. Ok, enough of the bad news.
I guess you could just keep on scraping and sanding until you obtain a smooth surface then apply a fiberglass patch in any area where you have sanded right through the glass but you will still need to know that there are proper and improper techniques for doing this.
Other builders have used the Newfound Video but I don't think any of them ran into the problem you are having.
As for the Proprep scraper, I have one but I have only used it on one boat so far and haven't gotten around to sharpening it yet. What I will try is to sharpen the blades on an oil stone, holding them by hand and eyeballing the angle.
As for you photo storage site, it would help if your pics were larger so we could see more detail. I displayed them at maximum size and that helped some but not enough for these old eyes.
I guess you could just keep on scraping and sanding until you obtain a smooth surface then apply a fiberglass patch in any area where you have sanded right through the glass but you will still need to know that there are proper and improper techniques for doing this.
Other builders have used the Newfound Video but I don't think any of them ran into the problem you are having.
As for the Proprep scraper, I have one but I have only used it on one boat so far and haven't gotten around to sharpening it yet. What I will try is to sharpen the blades on an oil stone, holding them by hand and eyeballing the angle.
As for you photo storage site, it would help if your pics were larger so we could see more detail. I displayed them at maximum size and that helped some but not enough for these old eyes.
Glenn,
No need to apologize for being harsh. If I was worried about being critiqued I wouldnt post my pics here LOL! I'm posting them for help.
I cut those out of bias cloth, well I thought I had it at a 45 and they did lay down nice, but those edges are horrible. It started setting up before I could play with them as I was alone on the fill coat. That is a 5oz piece from my old cloth so it's much thicker then what I used on the boat and the foot ball piece. I didnt think to buy enough glass with the new order for bias cloth reinforcment strips inside and out. Had all that 5oz glass here, figured it'd be a good time to use it, oops. Lesson learned there. The fiber tcloth Larry sent wet out very nice and I wouldnt be here if I would have ordered for the strips I dont think.
Where I cut through isnt the main cloth, it's the stem reinforcement cloth. I was trying to scrap a booger down so it was a smooth transition between the stem cloth and the full length cloth. There is nothing talked about in any of the books or the video's I've found about blending it in, when to or when not too. Well, there could be, but I must be over looking it somewhere ;). So there is no repair needed here. I'm trying to blend that edge in is all without getting into something I shouldnt or ending up with a white line all around both ends of the boat.
I thought about postin ghte pics bigger but was worried about getting to big...I'll post it bigger here.
One of the stem boogers and where I cut through the stem reinforcement piece again.
No need to apologize for being harsh. If I was worried about being critiqued I wouldnt post my pics here LOL! I'm posting them for help.
I cut those out of bias cloth, well I thought I had it at a 45 and they did lay down nice, but those edges are horrible. It started setting up before I could play with them as I was alone on the fill coat. That is a 5oz piece from my old cloth so it's much thicker then what I used on the boat and the foot ball piece. I didnt think to buy enough glass with the new order for bias cloth reinforcment strips inside and out. Had all that 5oz glass here, figured it'd be a good time to use it, oops. Lesson learned there. The fiber tcloth Larry sent wet out very nice and I wouldnt be here if I would have ordered for the strips I dont think.
Where I cut through isnt the main cloth, it's the stem reinforcement cloth. I was trying to scrap a booger down so it was a smooth transition between the stem cloth and the full length cloth. There is nothing talked about in any of the books or the video's I've found about blending it in, when to or when not too. Well, there could be, but I must be over looking it somewhere ;). So there is no repair needed here. I'm trying to blend that edge in is all without getting into something I shouldnt or ending up with a white line all around both ends of the boat.
I thought about postin ghte pics bigger but was worried about getting to big...I'll post it bigger here.
One of the stem boogers and where I cut through the stem reinforcement piece again.
[/img]-
Glen Smith
- Posts: 3719
- Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 9:08 am
- Location: Baie-St-Paul, Quebec, Canada
The smoother the bias cut strip application job, the easier it is to clean it up.
I have used 4oz strips and I have used 6oz strips and they are impossible to see in most cases. Some do show a slightly darker shade where I have used multiple bias cut stips.
I would just keep going at them with a scraper until I am satisfied with the transition from one layer to two layers, being careful to only scrape the top layer. Then I would sand the junction with 120 grit paper on a ROS with a light touch. When the junction feels and looks smooth, clean well and apply another coat of epoxy.
I always work alone so my procedure is to first of all forget about obtaining a chemical bond between epoxy coats. I do the main hull glassing and allow to dry till no longer tacky. Then I trim excess from stems and lightly hand sand the cuts with 120 grit. Then I apply the bias-cut strip by applying epoxy to the area to be covered then laying on the glass strip and smoothing it out with gloved fingers. Then I apply enough epoxy with a brush to saturate the strips. Then use the squeegee to press down the strips and remove excess epoxy. If applying an extra football piece I would do that now also, always attempting to have a clean transition line. Once the strips and football are no longer tacky, I then go at them with the scraper to clean up and "feather in" the edges. The next step is to hand sand with 120 grit or use a ROS with a light touch being careful to not cut into the main cloth. Clean everything up and apply the fill coats. If I use more than one bias-cut layer on the stems, I lay them on and wet them out one after the other until they are all on. Then I squeegee and so on.
I have used 4oz strips and I have used 6oz strips and they are impossible to see in most cases. Some do show a slightly darker shade where I have used multiple bias cut stips.
I would just keep going at them with a scraper until I am satisfied with the transition from one layer to two layers, being careful to only scrape the top layer. Then I would sand the junction with 120 grit paper on a ROS with a light touch. When the junction feels and looks smooth, clean well and apply another coat of epoxy.
I always work alone so my procedure is to first of all forget about obtaining a chemical bond between epoxy coats. I do the main hull glassing and allow to dry till no longer tacky. Then I trim excess from stems and lightly hand sand the cuts with 120 grit. Then I apply the bias-cut strip by applying epoxy to the area to be covered then laying on the glass strip and smoothing it out with gloved fingers. Then I apply enough epoxy with a brush to saturate the strips. Then use the squeegee to press down the strips and remove excess epoxy. If applying an extra football piece I would do that now also, always attempting to have a clean transition line. Once the strips and football are no longer tacky, I then go at them with the scraper to clean up and "feather in" the edges. The next step is to hand sand with 120 grit or use a ROS with a light touch being careful to not cut into the main cloth. Clean everything up and apply the fill coats. If I use more than one bias-cut layer on the stems, I lay them on and wet them out one after the other until they are all on. Then I squeegee and so on.
Glenn,
That makes more sense. I was afraid to do the tack down of the stem pieces on the filler coat and be off a coat there, so instead tried filling the stem pieces on the hulls filler coat, and I bet I floated it along the edge in alot of those areas, like where I cut through.
The hull should be more then hard enough to sand right now.
Was hoping to get some advice before I went at it after cutting through last nite with the scraper. Coudlnt find anything in any of teh books I have on when to fair this edge.
I kinda regret putting the reinforcement strips on now, the coloration doesnt look right, easily noticable. If I would have ran heavier glass to begin with I probably wouldnt and would have followed Teds book on doing without.
I also trimmed the main glass let it set up, shaved the excess off and sanded with 100 grit to fair the eges. I almost left it at that, almost!. To late now for complaining though ugg. Now lets see how nice I can make it ;)
That makes more sense. I was afraid to do the tack down of the stem pieces on the filler coat and be off a coat there, so instead tried filling the stem pieces on the hulls filler coat, and I bet I floated it along the edge in alot of those areas, like where I cut through.
The hull should be more then hard enough to sand right now.
Was hoping to get some advice before I went at it after cutting through last nite with the scraper. Coudlnt find anything in any of teh books I have on when to fair this edge.
I kinda regret putting the reinforcement strips on now, the coloration doesnt look right, easily noticable. If I would have ran heavier glass to begin with I probably wouldnt and would have followed Teds book on doing without.
I also trimmed the main glass let it set up, shaved the excess off and sanded with 100 grit to fair the eges. I almost left it at that, almost!. To late now for complaining though ugg. Now lets see how nice I can make it ;)
Glassing etc.
Dan, your experience is why we build at least 3 canoes! :smile
My experience with added bias strips is as Glen has stated. No matter how hard I try, the edges on bias strips need some attention. Some have said that a layer of plastic film layed over the fresh epoxy will produce a smooth transition. I've not tried that.
I scrape the edge to feather then add a couple of coats of epoxy and continue scraping until it looks good. BTW, the epoxy must be cured enough before scraping.
In areas where you see bubbles, white glass, etc., there is no way to get that area to become clear by adding more epoxy without drastic action.
Dan, I tried all the usual methods of sharpening the ProPrep blades. The blades are stainless steel and are different then the carbon steel used in planes and chisles, IMHO. What works best for me are the flat diamond plates. I broke down and bought a DMT 3" x 8" plate. http://www.dmtsharp.com/products/diasharp.htm
I fashioned a blade holder from a piece of hardwood. The stright blades are easiest while the crescent blade is trickey to swipe across the diamond plate.
The blades must be sharp and touched up often before the edge gets too flat.
Ed...
PS. Dan, sanding uncured epoxy is really bad for your health, not that cured epoxy is any better. A respirator is a must!
My experience with added bias strips is as Glen has stated. No matter how hard I try, the edges on bias strips need some attention. Some have said that a layer of plastic film layed over the fresh epoxy will produce a smooth transition. I've not tried that.
I scrape the edge to feather then add a couple of coats of epoxy and continue scraping until it looks good. BTW, the epoxy must be cured enough before scraping.
In areas where you see bubbles, white glass, etc., there is no way to get that area to become clear by adding more epoxy without drastic action.
Dan, I tried all the usual methods of sharpening the ProPrep blades. The blades are stainless steel and are different then the carbon steel used in planes and chisles, IMHO. What works best for me are the flat diamond plates. I broke down and bought a DMT 3" x 8" plate. http://www.dmtsharp.com/products/diasharp.htm
I fashioned a blade holder from a piece of hardwood. The stright blades are easiest while the crescent blade is trickey to swipe across the diamond plate.
The blades must be sharp and touched up often before the edge gets too flat.
Ed...
PS. Dan, sanding uncured epoxy is really bad for your health, not that cured epoxy is any better. A respirator is a must!
Last edited by ealger on Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ed Alger
Back in.
I sanded the boat down, faired the edges, cleaned up and did another coat of epoxy.
I think my initial coats were to thick. There was a lot of very small waves in it.
I also touched up the foot ball piece which is now completely invisible. You can find it if you look as there is a couple of very small white spots from when i scraped on it.
I also touched up the stem glass. That went much better then I anticipated though I cringed greatly through the process. This is where I really know I put to much on. Instead of tacking them down and then filling I tried to fill and "catch up" to the rest of the boat, big mistake.
The nice thing is, after sanding there is almsot zero white spots, the most there is , is still a slight edge that needs to be filled in, and some glass 'fuzz' I failed to get off and didnt notice till I ran over it with more epoxy.
I'm still getting waaaay to many bubbles with the roller I believe. But it works and this coat definatly went on much gooder. I could feel the difference mostly, and at time s hear it. The tip off isnt working to get the fine bubbles out though after the next coat the previous ones are gone. I do nock off any big bumps I get from the brush.
I used all fast this time in hopes of getting one more coat on tonight and I need to use it up as I have to at some point use it. Starting to feel comfortable and getting a system down instead of feeling rushed or behind.
Again thanks for all the info, I'll post pics when I get them later on tonight.
Thank you very much for all the help, I'm tickled beyond belief.
I sanded the boat down, faired the edges, cleaned up and did another coat of epoxy.
I think my initial coats were to thick. There was a lot of very small waves in it.
I also touched up the foot ball piece which is now completely invisible. You can find it if you look as there is a couple of very small white spots from when i scraped on it.
I also touched up the stem glass. That went much better then I anticipated though I cringed greatly through the process. This is where I really know I put to much on. Instead of tacking them down and then filling I tried to fill and "catch up" to the rest of the boat, big mistake.
The nice thing is, after sanding there is almsot zero white spots, the most there is , is still a slight edge that needs to be filled in, and some glass 'fuzz' I failed to get off and didnt notice till I ran over it with more epoxy.
I'm still getting waaaay to many bubbles with the roller I believe. But it works and this coat definatly went on much gooder. I could feel the difference mostly, and at time s hear it. The tip off isnt working to get the fine bubbles out though after the next coat the previous ones are gone. I do nock off any big bumps I get from the brush.
I used all fast this time in hopes of getting one more coat on tonight and I need to use it up as I have to at some point use it. Starting to feel comfortable and getting a system down instead of feeling rushed or behind.
Again thanks for all the info, I'll post pics when I get them later on tonight.
Thank you very much for all the help, I'm tickled beyond belief.
Thanks Ed, I was wondering how to do it. Mine are getting dull and I'm hesitant to use the half moon shaped one as I want it for the inside of the boat, atleast to start ;) I didnt figure it was to hard to do, but figured someone would have a great tip!
I do wear a respirator the hole time, both sanding and applying, or just getting into the garage to clean up a bit, which I really need to do btw ;)!
Again thanks!!!!
I do wear a respirator the hole time, both sanding and applying, or just getting into the garage to clean up a bit, which I really need to do btw ;)!
Again thanks!!!!
scraping
Dan, the crescent blade is great for scraping the inside of the hull. When you turn the hull over, you'll find glue and some epoxy that has dripped through any cracks. The glue and the epoxy will take the edge off the blade fast. It will be necessary to find the sharpening method that works for you. If you attack the cedar/glue/epoxy with a dull blade, the soft cedar will not cut smooth and you'll have to do some extra aerobic sanding!
Ed..
Ed..
Ed Alger
-
Rod Tait
Dan,
I was away for the long weekend but it looks like you got through it and that you have done a great job on the glassing. Once you scrape the edges of the extra pieces and sand the whole boat and add a few more layers of epoxy on and around the extra pieces, I bet it will all blend in nicely and you will hardly notice the transition.
I was away for the long weekend but it looks like you got through it and that you have done a great job on the glassing. Once you scrape the edges of the extra pieces and sand the whole boat and add a few more layers of epoxy on and around the extra pieces, I bet it will all blend in nicely and you will hardly notice the transition.
Well the fix went well. Have 2 more coats of epoxy on. Screwed up on the last coat, ran out of rollers, duh on me ;) So had to apply it with a brush. I can see why people like the rollers more...but man I cant get this bubble thing worked out.
Anyways, there is still one spot I need to sand down just a tad . Other then that I'm overwhelmed how good it came about. If you couldnt tell I was extremely worried I boogerred up badly!!!!
Here are four pics, each side of both ends and the one stem that had all the issues. Both stems them, this side was by far worse, lots of raised glass and bubbles ugg.
Anyways, there is still one spot I need to sand down just a tad . Other then that I'm overwhelmed how good it came about. If you couldnt tell I was extremely worried I boogerred up badly!!!!
Here are four pics, each side of both ends and the one stem that had all the issues. Both stems them, this side was by far worse, lots of raised glass and bubbles ugg.
again I want to say thanks for all the help, in emails, phone calls and on here!!! It's been quite the journey.
she's not show room quality but she's beautiful to me. I've got mistakes, (notice the plug is off center a skosh ;) and a few other things) but I love it.
Again thanks for everything.
Tomorrow I should be finish sanding and takign her off the molds, woohoo! Almost sadistic, back to sanding wood ;)
Again
she's not show room quality but she's beautiful to me. I've got mistakes, (notice the plug is off center a skosh ;) and a few other things) but I love it.
Again thanks for everything.
Tomorrow I should be finish sanding and takign her off the molds, woohoo! Almost sadistic, back to sanding wood ;)
Again