So, I'm trying to get setup for the painters hole.
Tried making caps and gluing them together, worked great, well kinda. Used a 1" hole saw, stacked and glued...went to nock them down with sandpaper on a dowel in my drill press and the heat had the glue go soft, ugg.
So, bought a bunch of different hole saws to figure out if I could get closer. I jumped from wanting a 5/8 painter hole to 3/4. A 3/4 hole saw is to small, a 7/8 hole saw is awfully close but yet quite sloppy, and a 1" is still too big.
The cross roads? Nope havent gotten there yet.
Bought a 3/4" dowel, fits a 3/4" forestner snug. So tried center drilling, coming in from one side then the other, going up in bits till I reached a 3/8" hole only to find them off center........again!
So...you want to do a painter hole, with a layered plug, use a hole saw? Or use a plug cutter? If ya use a plug cutter, how are ya supposd to find center to drill it out and then have that hole go straight through? I figure I need 3 1/4"es to leave some extra on the intial fit. The hole saw is the better of the two fit wise and getting things centered.
Or, you take a dowel, lop it off, how are ya supposed to center drill this and get it straight?
Tools........
-a small table top drill press
-rigid edge sander/spindle sander
-table saw
-router and router table that I'm not all that great with...yet
-no lathe of any kind. I may have access to a machinist lathe on monday which is last resort
-cord dril
-and some other hand tools
I've had this problem in the past working on wood arrows, trying to do whats called a footed shaft. Never did get through it, and ended up kind of going around it.
any idears?
a simple wood working folly that has been a problem before..
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Tim Eastman
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:40 pm
- Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan, U.S.A.
Well,..
I went round and round with pros and cons on a painter's hole and short story is, if you think you want or need one you'll get a handle on it. I simply could not bring myself to put a hole in the hull and then try to patch it water tight.
The only reason I could come up with to even do a painter's hole was it provided something to tie to when car topping your canoe. We didn't use one for rolling the canoe when varnishing (I suppose that might even be why it's called a painter's hole).
For car topping we have glued (epoxied) inner gunwales so we simply lash some 1" webbing through the inside gunwale scuppers real close to the epoxied decks diagonal down to opposite ratchet straps on the car someplace. It's rock solid and will NOT move. It shakes the van when I try to move it.
Advice on painter's holes though I don't have - sorry.
I went round and round with pros and cons on a painter's hole and short story is, if you think you want or need one you'll get a handle on it. I simply could not bring myself to put a hole in the hull and then try to patch it water tight.
The only reason I could come up with to even do a painter's hole was it provided something to tie to when car topping your canoe. We didn't use one for rolling the canoe when varnishing (I suppose that might even be why it's called a painter's hole).
For car topping we have glued (epoxied) inner gunwales so we simply lash some 1" webbing through the inside gunwale scuppers real close to the epoxied decks diagonal down to opposite ratchet straps on the car someplace. It's rock solid and will NOT move. It shakes the van when I try to move it.
Advice on painter's holes though I don't have - sorry.
Tim Eastman
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Be an example worth following
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Be an example worth following
Tim,
That is what the painters hole was for.
My concern about using a scupper to tie too is they are cedar and the outer portion of the inner is ash. I could go back and redo the inner gunnel, re glue things up and start it over, that is an option though I'd prefer NOT to do it, I may.
The other reason i do not want to tie to the inner gunnel is they are butted up to the deck and not run past the decks like in Ted's book.
The decks are fitted and almost ready to be mounted. Took today off to do some predator calling. Will think about this at work tomorrow some more. I'd really like to keep from having to run the inner gunnels alongside the decks at this point. Not sure if the decks I have would work if I made the change.
That is what the painters hole was for.
My concern about using a scupper to tie too is they are cedar and the outer portion of the inner is ash. I could go back and redo the inner gunnel, re glue things up and start it over, that is an option though I'd prefer NOT to do it, I may.
The other reason i do not want to tie to the inner gunnel is they are butted up to the deck and not run past the decks like in Ted's book.
The decks are fitted and almost ready to be mounted. Took today off to do some predator calling. Will think about this at work tomorrow some more. I'd really like to keep from having to run the inner gunnels alongside the decks at this point. Not sure if the decks I have would work if I made the change.
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Tim Eastman
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:40 pm
- Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan, U.S.A.
Now I think I've got a grip on why you didn't want the tie-downs to the gunwale. Unfortunately I have no experience with painter holes for the very reason that I couldn't figure out exactly what you're dealing with. IE: keeping the hole lined up all the way through both sides of the hull.
Nearest I ever came to figuring it out was to drill ALL the way through with a l-o-n-g drill bit say 1/8" and then follow with a holesaw.
The only way I know to center the hole in the dowel is to use your drill press and center drill it perpendicular before cutting to the bevel/curve of the hull.
But there this is only armchair quarterback advice as I have not done this.
You may try the Kayak builder's forum or do a search here in the past posts.
Nearest I ever came to figuring it out was to drill ALL the way through with a l-o-n-g drill bit say 1/8" and then follow with a holesaw.
The only way I know to center the hole in the dowel is to use your drill press and center drill it perpendicular before cutting to the bevel/curve of the hull.
But there this is only armchair quarterback advice as I have not done this.
You may try the Kayak builder's forum or do a search here in the past posts.
Tim Eastman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Be an example worth following
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Be an example worth following
Painter Hole
Dan, the other option is to install an eyebolt. I know some think that this option is crude but some also think cutting a hole in a perfectly good hull is heresy.
This picture is not very good but gives an idea.
[img][img]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a237/ ... C_1311.jpg[/img][/img]
It simplifies tie-down and allows a trailing painter as well.
Stainless and brass/bronze bolts are available.
Ed...
This picture is not very good but gives an idea.
[img][img]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a237/ ... C_1311.jpg[/img][/img]
It simplifies tie-down and allows a trailing painter as well.
Stainless and brass/bronze bolts are available.
Ed...
Ed Alger
well I thinks I've figured it out.
Took a forstner bit, drilled a hole till the point just poked through.
Inserted dowel. Marked while spinning the dowel in the block essentially making a O on the bottom which was small enough to mark center with the drill bits.
Started small, and worked up to a 3/8" forestner as regular bits were getting too long to run in my lil press.
Flipped it over, did the same and viola it isnt 100% dead on, but it's awfully dang close!
NOw, should I drill the hole in the boat???? Or not????
Right now there is nothing to tie too that atleast I am seeing. I just can't come to grips with running an eye bolt in the stem. Or even a stem band though I considered looking into it tonight on my walk back in from the garage.
Have one deck to go shaping wise, and a finish sand with 120 inside and out, hopefully I can decide to hole or not to hole and if no hole how to tie it up on top of the pick'm'up truck.
Took a forstner bit, drilled a hole till the point just poked through.
Inserted dowel. Marked while spinning the dowel in the block essentially making a O on the bottom which was small enough to mark center with the drill bits.
Started small, and worked up to a 3/8" forestner as regular bits were getting too long to run in my lil press.
Flipped it over, did the same and viola it isnt 100% dead on, but it's awfully dang close!
NOw, should I drill the hole in the boat???? Or not????
Right now there is nothing to tie too that atleast I am seeing. I just can't come to grips with running an eye bolt in the stem. Or even a stem band though I considered looking into it tonight on my walk back in from the garage.
Have one deck to go shaping wise, and a finish sand with 120 inside and out, hopefully I can decide to hole or not to hole and if no hole how to tie it up on top of the pick'm'up truck.
Dan, the painter holes drilled through the hull behind the stems are useful to line canoes through shallows with... the canoe behaves much better when pulled near the waterline this way, than with a more traditional ring bolted higher up, on the top of the deck.
I didn't feel that the painter hole was necessary for a stripper so didn't hole the hull, and spent some time being creative with aluminum to create an eyelet bolted onto the deck to tie the canoe down onto the truck. The brushed aluminum looks good on top of the varnished wood, IMO, and is easy to work.
Traditional brass rings don't look bad either, maybe not the ones on rigid bolts, others swing freely on a metal eyelet. Thin brass rings might bend under the stress when tied down tightly, and maybe there's a stainless steel ring available somewhere. Marine supply shops should have something along these lines.
Eg... brass ring from North Bay Canoe...
http://www.nbcanoe.com/index.php?main_p ... cPath=1_86
I didn't feel that the painter hole was necessary for a stripper so didn't hole the hull, and spent some time being creative with aluminum to create an eyelet bolted onto the deck to tie the canoe down onto the truck. The brushed aluminum looks good on top of the varnished wood, IMO, and is easy to work.
Traditional brass rings don't look bad either, maybe not the ones on rigid bolts, others swing freely on a metal eyelet. Thin brass rings might bend under the stress when tied down tightly, and maybe there's a stainless steel ring available somewhere. Marine supply shops should have something along these lines.
Eg... brass ring from North Bay Canoe...
http://www.nbcanoe.com/index.php?main_p ... cPath=1_86
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bluedcanoed
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:16 am
- Location: Kawartha Lakes
hole for painter/tie-down
If your deck isn't too long, I'd consider short (handsized) thwarts crossing just a handwidth behind the decks. Good spot for tie down ropes to car top and handy to lift ends of canoe by hand.
Cheers,
Bob
Cheers,
Bob
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Jeff in Farmington, MI
- Posts: 118
- Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:19 pm
- Location: Farmington, Michigan, USA
I also worried about boring holes in the hull. However, my solution worked out very well and requires no dowels, tubes, or pipes to keep the hull watertight. I simply bored a hole through both sides of the inner stem, sealed it with epoxy, and trimmed it on each side with the larger half of an unassembled brass grommet (the half with both tube and flange). It is simple, structurally sound, and very attractive in my opinion.
If you built with inner and outer stems as described in Canoecraft, your inner stem is 3/4 inch wide, plenty of room to locate a hole entirely within the inner stem. I believe I used a 1/2 inch grommet, a standard item at any hardware store. A forstner bit bores a nice hole and the bit doesn't self-feed its way into the wood. A 9/16 inch bit nearly matches the OD of the grommet tube, but that size is not found in most forstner sets, so you need to purchase it separately.
The only real trick is to line up the holes that you will bore from each side of the stem. Don't bore a single hole from one side to the other. You want two holes bored perpendicular from each hull surface, and intersecting in the middle of the stem.
With the holes bored, just seal the inside with epoxy and set the grommet flanges in place with some thickened epoxy.
Jeff
If you built with inner and outer stems as described in Canoecraft, your inner stem is 3/4 inch wide, plenty of room to locate a hole entirely within the inner stem. I believe I used a 1/2 inch grommet, a standard item at any hardware store. A forstner bit bores a nice hole and the bit doesn't self-feed its way into the wood. A 9/16 inch bit nearly matches the OD of the grommet tube, but that size is not found in most forstner sets, so you need to purchase it separately.
The only real trick is to line up the holes that you will bore from each side of the stem. Don't bore a single hole from one side to the other. You want two holes bored perpendicular from each hull surface, and intersecting in the middle of the stem.
With the holes bored, just seal the inside with epoxy and set the grommet flanges in place with some thickened epoxy.
Jeff
Just an update.
After a lot of thinking, tinkering, drawing, tinkering, and just plum being lost. I decided I'd be better served by putting a yakama rack on my pickup. Just couldnt bring myself to do it. Even thought about the drill through the steam deal, but on my boat I just dont think it's feasable. This design had a lot of tumblehome (which created another problem unforseen till yesterday). even out on the stems.
I also ran into another problem. Went to fit the inner gunnels.......ended up having to redo them. So instead of ash and cedar, I'm doing ash and ash. I'll post another thread with this issue and how I think I should be resolving it to hopefully get the nod or not.
Thanks again....been a long two weeks tinkering with this idea!
After a lot of thinking, tinkering, drawing, tinkering, and just plum being lost. I decided I'd be better served by putting a yakama rack on my pickup. Just couldnt bring myself to do it. Even thought about the drill through the steam deal, but on my boat I just dont think it's feasable. This design had a lot of tumblehome (which created another problem unforseen till yesterday). even out on the stems.
I also ran into another problem. Went to fit the inner gunnels.......ended up having to redo them. So instead of ash and cedar, I'm doing ash and ash. I'll post another thread with this issue and how I think I should be resolving it to hopefully get the nod or not.
Thanks again....been a long two weeks tinkering with this idea!