I am still in the planning stages of my canoe build and I have hit another snag. Last week end at the Miami International Boat show I had the opportunity to see some wonderful boats made by Steve and Friends at Adirondack Guideboat, Inc. I have to admit in talking to him for a while I immediately saw the potential a guide boat had. Specifically its ability to handle rough/choppy water and its heavy load carrying capacity. I took lots of pics and asked lots of questions what i do not understand is this.
in building the guide boat all the strips are fastened to the ribs with counter sunk screws. then the outside is finished in an identical manner to a canoe. when you then flip the boat to work on the outside how do you make the interior smooth if you have a rib say every 6 inches? also how do you glass the interior?
any guide boat builders in here?
Xavier
this might be a really silly question.
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John Michne
- Posts: 116
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- Location: Clifton Park, NY
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The Adirondack guideboat is a unique regional classic, indigenous to the Adirondack Mountain area of New York. It was not specifically designed, but evolved over time to meet a need. The guides of the region needed a boat that was light, strong, and could carry two people and all of their gear for extended trips to hunt and fish. The boat has some of the characteristics of the dory, wherry, and bateau, with fully evolved versions seen in the late 1800’s.
The boat was built with ribs cut from a spruce stump, such that the grain of the wood from the stump into the roots followed the curve of the ribs. While some builders still have access to spruce stumps and the will to dig them out, most modern ribs are built from laminated spruce. The ribs were screwed to a narrow bottom board, usually of pine, and covered with quarter-sawn pine planks. Lightweight caned seats, decking, and trim complete the boat. Each boat was supplied with a set of soft maple oars and a single paddle.
Oarlocks were mounted in two positions. The guide would row from the center seat if there was no passenger, and row equally well from the bow seat on a guiding trip with a passenger. The center seat was removable, creating a hold for duffel, and the sport sat aft.
Modern versions, some of which do not include the signature feature of narrow ribs, include molded Kevlar, stripped without ribs and fiberglassed inside and out, stripped over ribs with lightweight fiberglass outside only, and finally, covered in lapped planks. Except for laminating ribs, there is no epoxy used in planked reproductions.
I first built stripped canoes, then a ribless stripped guideboat, then a couple of ribbed and stripped versions (seen below), and am presently completing a fully ribbed and planked reproduction of a boat originally built in 1904.
For more information on guideboats and building them, see my web site, http://michneboat.com.
- John
[/img]
The boat was built with ribs cut from a spruce stump, such that the grain of the wood from the stump into the roots followed the curve of the ribs. While some builders still have access to spruce stumps and the will to dig them out, most modern ribs are built from laminated spruce. The ribs were screwed to a narrow bottom board, usually of pine, and covered with quarter-sawn pine planks. Lightweight caned seats, decking, and trim complete the boat. Each boat was supplied with a set of soft maple oars and a single paddle.
Oarlocks were mounted in two positions. The guide would row from the center seat if there was no passenger, and row equally well from the bow seat on a guiding trip with a passenger. The center seat was removable, creating a hold for duffel, and the sport sat aft.
Modern versions, some of which do not include the signature feature of narrow ribs, include molded Kevlar, stripped without ribs and fiberglassed inside and out, stripped over ribs with lightweight fiberglass outside only, and finally, covered in lapped planks. Except for laminating ribs, there is no epoxy used in planked reproductions.
I first built stripped canoes, then a ribless stripped guideboat, then a couple of ribbed and stripped versions (seen below), and am presently completing a fully ribbed and planked reproduction of a boat originally built in 1904.
For more information on guideboats and building them, see my web site, http://michneboat.com.
- John
[/img]good explanation, but it leads to another question.
Obviously part of the beauty in these boats is the ribs. I could see how a traditional vessel without any glass and epoxy would breath and look pretty good. But on a boat that is sealed on the outside with epoxy and glass and only painted on the inside with epoxy; wont moisture ingress into the hull from the inside which will happen with any ding or scratch pose delamination or clouding problems on the hull?
I could see building without ribs on molds like a canoe then glassing the inside then bedding ribs in epoxy with filler just to achieve the look. would something like this work. I realize it would add a little weight.
By the way thanks for rib drawings John.
Xavier
I could see building without ribs on molds like a canoe then glassing the inside then bedding ribs in epoxy with filler just to achieve the look. would something like this work. I realize it would add a little weight.
By the way thanks for rib drawings John.
Xavier
John will certainly have a more complete answer, but it is the epoxy that does the sealing, not the glass. The glass adds strength and also acts as a screed to control or at least influence the uniformity and thickness of the epoxy coating within which it is encapsulated.
With careful application, a uniform coating of epoxy resin alone of sufficient thickness has the same waterproofing characteristics that one with glass cloth embedded does.
With careful application, a uniform coating of epoxy resin alone of sufficient thickness has the same waterproofing characteristics that one with glass cloth embedded does.
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Patricks Dad
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I built a canoe that was glassed on the inside and then added ribs (my avatar). It was allot of work (3 extra months) and weight (probably 15 pounds). It ended up looking great and I'm very happy with it (but don't think I would do it again). I did use a lighter weight glass (4oz) on the inside but probably could have gotten away without glassing the inside at all which would have save a bit of time (not much) and a bit of weight (not much). Back in the day, the insides were sealed with boiled linseed oil. Ribs and epoxy is kind of a clash of 2 eras (but it does look good).
one other comment. The ribs added after the hull is built will never fit as precisely as planking over the ribs after they have been faired.
one other comment. The ribs added after the hull is built will never fit as precisely as planking over the ribs after they have been faired.
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John Michne
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 7:36 am
- Location: Clifton Park, NY
- Contact:
To answer the question about guideboat internal construction and finishing, the following is excerpted from Building an Adirondack Guideboat, co-authored by Michael Olivette and myself:
A FINAL CONSTRUCTION NOTE
More than one boat builder has questioned our method of fiberglassing only the outside of our boats. These builders are comparing our guideboats to ribless canoes and kayaks that require fiberglass both inside and outside to form a strong laminate in the absence of ribs.
Another, and perhaps more serious, concern is the interior waterproofing of hull designs like ours, in which fiberglass and epoxy are present only on the exterior of the hull. We used a brushed-on epoxy and/or varnish and/or paint to seal and waterproof the inside of the hull. The perceived weakness here lies in the notion that as the hull flexes while in use, the epoxy and paint or varnish seal at the joints between the ribs and hull stripping can crack and admit water into the joint between them. Once moisture gets into this area, it may soak into the unprotected hull planking under the ribs. The outer covering of fiberglass and epoxy inhibits drying so that after a few years, the hull will blacken and rot, and the outer fiberglass sheath will delaminate. Of course, old traditional guideboats soaked up a lot of water. Their owners, in most cases, would simply let the boats dry out over the winter and paint everything again, readying the boat for another year of use.
We believe the concerns are unwarranted, but also not without merit. First, we should note that the spacing of the ribs at approximately 5" provides for an extremely rigid hull, with virtually no flexing under all but the most severe conditions. Virtually all of today's strip-built boats (canoes, kayaks, and some guideboats) are ribless. The elimination of ribs, or the use of ribs spaced far apart (as is the case with some builders), opens the door for quite a bit of hull flexing, which naturally leads to the problems noted above.
We have recommended both varnishing and epoxying for finishing the interior of our boats. If you apply these finishes properly with a sufficient number of coats (five coats of varnish over at least two coats of slow-setting epoxy), rotting will not be a problem. We also recommended the epoxy gluing of the gunwales and decks precisely to prevent problems from moisture and rot. These are areas where flexing or movement will occur, and where water penetration can be a problem. By taking the precaution to epoxy-glue these sections to begin with, you will minimize future problems.
In a strip-built boat hull, the fiberglass provides strength while the epoxy bonds the cloth to the wood and provides waterproofing. The varnish or paint protects the epoxy from UV radiation degradation while contributing to the overall aesthetics of the craft. Severe flexing still makes it possible to break an epoxy seal, which would result in water making its way through the fiberglass/epoxy barrier into the wood. Ribbed construction minimizes or eliminates this flexing. So, in our view, the primary protection against water penetration is still the epoxy/varnish coating.
Our experience is limited only to tried and true marine paint and varnishes. If you are planning to use anything else, you should make sure it is compatible, preferably by contacting the product's manufacturer.
After spending a few hundred hours building an heirloom, you will want to treat it with care. Your boat will probably not be used to transport "sports," their game, duffel, or passengers for long distances in the manner of the old-time Adirondack guides. Treat it with respect, and your handcrafted guideboat will remain the classically beautiful heirloom you built it to be.
- John
A FINAL CONSTRUCTION NOTE
More than one boat builder has questioned our method of fiberglassing only the outside of our boats. These builders are comparing our guideboats to ribless canoes and kayaks that require fiberglass both inside and outside to form a strong laminate in the absence of ribs.
Another, and perhaps more serious, concern is the interior waterproofing of hull designs like ours, in which fiberglass and epoxy are present only on the exterior of the hull. We used a brushed-on epoxy and/or varnish and/or paint to seal and waterproof the inside of the hull. The perceived weakness here lies in the notion that as the hull flexes while in use, the epoxy and paint or varnish seal at the joints between the ribs and hull stripping can crack and admit water into the joint between them. Once moisture gets into this area, it may soak into the unprotected hull planking under the ribs. The outer covering of fiberglass and epoxy inhibits drying so that after a few years, the hull will blacken and rot, and the outer fiberglass sheath will delaminate. Of course, old traditional guideboats soaked up a lot of water. Their owners, in most cases, would simply let the boats dry out over the winter and paint everything again, readying the boat for another year of use.
We believe the concerns are unwarranted, but also not without merit. First, we should note that the spacing of the ribs at approximately 5" provides for an extremely rigid hull, with virtually no flexing under all but the most severe conditions. Virtually all of today's strip-built boats (canoes, kayaks, and some guideboats) are ribless. The elimination of ribs, or the use of ribs spaced far apart (as is the case with some builders), opens the door for quite a bit of hull flexing, which naturally leads to the problems noted above.
We have recommended both varnishing and epoxying for finishing the interior of our boats. If you apply these finishes properly with a sufficient number of coats (five coats of varnish over at least two coats of slow-setting epoxy), rotting will not be a problem. We also recommended the epoxy gluing of the gunwales and decks precisely to prevent problems from moisture and rot. These are areas where flexing or movement will occur, and where water penetration can be a problem. By taking the precaution to epoxy-glue these sections to begin with, you will minimize future problems.
In a strip-built boat hull, the fiberglass provides strength while the epoxy bonds the cloth to the wood and provides waterproofing. The varnish or paint protects the epoxy from UV radiation degradation while contributing to the overall aesthetics of the craft. Severe flexing still makes it possible to break an epoxy seal, which would result in water making its way through the fiberglass/epoxy barrier into the wood. Ribbed construction minimizes or eliminates this flexing. So, in our view, the primary protection against water penetration is still the epoxy/varnish coating.
Our experience is limited only to tried and true marine paint and varnishes. If you are planning to use anything else, you should make sure it is compatible, preferably by contacting the product's manufacturer.
After spending a few hundred hours building an heirloom, you will want to treat it with care. Your boat will probably not be used to transport "sports," their game, duffel, or passengers for long distances in the manner of the old-time Adirondack guides. Treat it with respect, and your handcrafted guideboat will remain the classically beautiful heirloom you built it to be.
- John
thanks for input.
In my case My "sport" is my other 1/2 and the game is an igloo cooler and all the other camping gear needed for 3-4 days in the "wild". The boat would be used very similarly to it's original intent. In fact probably even rougher conditions since most use would be in salt water here in the Everglades.
I think they are beautiful boats, but for my intended use I think my original idea of a freighter canoe will serve me better. Maybe I'll follow Patrick's dad's approach and glue some ribs into it just to copy that very cool look.
thanks for all your replies.
Xavier
I think they are beautiful boats, but for my intended use I think my original idea of a freighter canoe will serve me better. Maybe I'll follow Patrick's dad's approach and glue some ribs into it just to copy that very cool look.
thanks for all your replies.
Xavier