I am far enough along that I am about to start stripping the football of my canoe. I have been thinking about both methods of stripping the football; continuing the curve or laying the strips straight from end to end starting in the middle.
I think the stem area would be stronger with the middle strips landing on the inner stem and going to the other end.
I also think the center of the canoe would be stronger and less prone to oil canning if the strips were bent in the curve of the hull. Although having all of the strips meet in a center seam down the length makes me go hmmmm. I have always been taught that strength is greater with staggered joints.
I understand that the strength is in the fiberglass and I am probably over thinking this. Has anyone built using both methods? What are the benefits of each? Has anyone used each type of football strip on canoes enough to notice any difference? I like the looks of both for different reasons so looks don’t play into it for me.
Matthew
Football stripping
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Cyril Gosse
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:05 pm
- Location: Sicamous BC
Matthew
In building three 16ft canoes I have followed David Hazen's book "Strippers Guide to Canoe Building'. These were before I became aquainted with the Bear Mountain site. All these units have a straight stripped foofball and neither strength nor oil canning has been a problem.Two of these canoes have seen extremely rough usage while running the Bow River in springtime and fishing in Newfoundland.As you noted, the strength is in the glass and either method will give satisfactory performance.
Good luck
Cyril
In building three 16ft canoes I have followed David Hazen's book "Strippers Guide to Canoe Building'. These were before I became aquainted with the Bear Mountain site. All these units have a straight stripped foofball and neither strength nor oil canning has been a problem.Two of these canoes have seen extremely rough usage while running the Bow River in springtime and fishing in Newfoundland.As you noted, the strength is in the glass and either method will give satisfactory performance.
Good luck
Cyril
Thanks Cyril. I am more inclined to go straight because it looks easier. I only have about a 15 inch wide football and I think it should go quick. If someone can offer some reasons not to I think that will be where I am headed.
If you are speaking of the Bow River in southern Alberta, I am very familiar with the conditions. I put about a thousand km on the Bow and had some rocks and logs sneak up. A friend of mine lives right on the Bow and we launched from or landed in his back yard every chance we got for many years. I loved every minute. I miss it! Thanks for the memory nudge.
Matthew
If you are speaking of the Bow River in southern Alberta, I am very familiar with the conditions. I put about a thousand km on the Bow and had some rocks and logs sneak up. A friend of mine lives right on the Bow and we launched from or landed in his back yard every chance we got for many years. I loved every minute. I miss it! Thanks for the memory nudge.
Matthew
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vann evans
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:52 pm
- Location: Chapel Hill, NC
I built a Freedom 15 that had a combination of the two options that you listed. I put 2 strips straight from stem to stem in the middle of the football. The 2 strips were equal to the width of the stems. then I followed the normal curve from each side until the center. I thought it made the bottom stronger(to connect the stems) and it also made it easier to close the football with straight strips. I cut the bead and cove off of the outside of the straight strips(one on each side) so that I was able to join the last strip on each side with a square edge to square edge. I used sand bags, weights and shims to hold the last strips in place until the glue dried.
Here are some pictures of my boat
http://picasaweb.google.com/cboaternc/F ... StripCanoe#
you can see the bottom of the boat and the football closure in the fourth and fifth row down.
It worked well and I think it actually looks pretty good when complete.
Hope this helped.
Vann Evans
Here are some pictures of my boat
http://picasaweb.google.com/cboaternc/F ... StripCanoe#
you can see the bottom of the boat and the football closure in the fourth and fifth row down.
It worked well and I think it actually looks pretty good when complete.
Hope this helped.
Vann Evans
Vann, that is a beautiful canoe. Thank you for posting the pictures it is certainly food for thought. I’m not sure what to do yet but I will need to decide post haste.
Now for a threadjack. I have read most of the books, and have read a what seems like thousands of web pages and threads about canoe building etc however, Vann, I have not seen seat hangers like the ones supporting your seats anywhere until today. I like. Did I miss a book? Or were those your own design? How are they hung? I’m impressed.
Edited to add;
I am building with square cut strips and beveling each one.
Matthew
Now for a threadjack. I have read most of the books, and have read a what seems like thousands of web pages and threads about canoe building etc however, Vann, I have not seen seat hangers like the ones supporting your seats anywhere until today. I like. Did I miss a book? Or were those your own design? How are they hung? I’m impressed.
Edited to add;
I am building with square cut strips and beveling each one.
Matthew
Yes, Canoe Craft is the bible.
I think there is a lot of cutting and fitting no matter which method is used. I have also been looking at the double herringbone but a couple of people on a different forum say that it resulted in weak spots. I don’t know.
Doubling the work isn’t an issue. I enjoy it for the most part and with the thin flush cutting pull saws and a couple of plane strokes it really isn’t that tough. I find that an angle die grinder with a fine 2” roloc sanding disc really makes fine tuning easy.
Matthew
I think there is a lot of cutting and fitting no matter which method is used. I have also been looking at the double herringbone but a couple of people on a different forum say that it resulted in weak spots. I don’t know.
Doubling the work isn’t an issue. I enjoy it for the most part and with the thin flush cutting pull saws and a couple of plane strokes it really isn’t that tough. I find that an angle die grinder with a fine 2” roloc sanding disc really makes fine tuning easy.
Matthew
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vann evans
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:52 pm
- Location: Chapel Hill, NC
To answer your question about the seats/hangers, I built the seat hangers from a design my wife made. We have several other canoes, and our Bell has a similar design. I cut them from 5/4x6 ash, 2 coats of epoxy and 2 coats of varnish before installation. I used bronze carriage bolts for the seats and thwarts-actually the only metal hardware on the whole boa. Laura also designed the seat designs-woven webbing 2" and 3/4" wide
As to the football--I agree that different methods will produce little difference in strength. It's mainly about cosmetics and which way you think is best(or easy,hard, harder). I thought the herringbone would be the hardest, so I wanted an easier method for my first boat. the cuts at the end of my boat were pretty simple-no compound cuts, just single angles that I duplicated using a sliding bevel and a razor knife. Not having to deal with bead or cove was the thought about cutting the center strip edges square.
Vann Evans
As to the football--I agree that different methods will produce little difference in strength. It's mainly about cosmetics and which way you think is best(or easy,hard, harder). I thought the herringbone would be the hardest, so I wanted an easier method for my first boat. the cuts at the end of my boat were pretty simple-no compound cuts, just single angles that I duplicated using a sliding bevel and a razor knife. Not having to deal with bead or cove was the thought about cutting the center strip edges square.
Vann Evans
Vann, how were they for weight? I like the look they give. I built cherry seats and have enough left over that I think I could make a set of similar hangers.
This is my first canoe. I chose the scrappiest of the redwood (the only 20 foot boards here were old split up stock at the lumberyard but cheap) to make my strips thinking that if it turned out to be trash my investment was low. I saved the nice white, red and chocolate colored boards for a future canoe. I have bead and cove bits but decided to try beveling edges to hone my skills and see how hard it could be. It’s turning out nice, nicer than I expected. Since I knew this would be my first canoe but not my last (6 kids), I also want to make my big mistakes and try different things on this one.
I know it goes against the traditional wisdom but I usually fly by the seat of my pants in my shop. I don’t use plans to build furniture just knowledge of good construction and go by eye and feel. Everyone says that what I build is beautiful and I know it is solid because it lasts for decades without any loosening of joints. This canoe is kind of the same. I read the books, looked at the plans, read all of the forums I could find and looked at hundreds of the canoes on google images. There are things I like in all of the construction methods. There are things I like in the different canoe designs. I chose what I like and went with it. I have deviated from many things except that my forms are mirror images, true, in perfect alignment and solid on the strongback. The design for the most part is mine based on patterns I drew 10 years ago, what I liked in the past and a vision. Getting to the first strip was hard. Building is easy.
Last week a lady who has 8 kayaks and several canoes came to see what I am doing and said she is really impressed and wants to help launch it for the first time. She likes what she sees, and said she loves the look and feel of the design. We’ll see.
Matthew
This is my first canoe. I chose the scrappiest of the redwood (the only 20 foot boards here were old split up stock at the lumberyard but cheap) to make my strips thinking that if it turned out to be trash my investment was low. I saved the nice white, red and chocolate colored boards for a future canoe. I have bead and cove bits but decided to try beveling edges to hone my skills and see how hard it could be. It’s turning out nice, nicer than I expected. Since I knew this would be my first canoe but not my last (6 kids), I also want to make my big mistakes and try different things on this one.
I know it goes against the traditional wisdom but I usually fly by the seat of my pants in my shop. I don’t use plans to build furniture just knowledge of good construction and go by eye and feel. Everyone says that what I build is beautiful and I know it is solid because it lasts for decades without any loosening of joints. This canoe is kind of the same. I read the books, looked at the plans, read all of the forums I could find and looked at hundreds of the canoes on google images. There are things I like in all of the construction methods. There are things I like in the different canoe designs. I chose what I like and went with it. I have deviated from many things except that my forms are mirror images, true, in perfect alignment and solid on the strongback. The design for the most part is mine based on patterns I drew 10 years ago, what I liked in the past and a vision. Getting to the first strip was hard. Building is easy.
Last week a lady who has 8 kayaks and several canoes came to see what I am doing and said she is really impressed and wants to help launch it for the first time. She likes what she sees, and said she loves the look and feel of the design. We’ll see.
Matthew
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KnottyWoodwork
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:33 pm
I know it's customary to say the strength is in the glass and epoxy. I don't buy that, and think it might encourage some to take less care with the joinery than they should.
If you just had the planking, carefully done, and no glass, you would still have a canoe. If you just had two layers of six ounce epoxied you wouldn't have much. Even if they were separated 1/4" by something less remarkable than wood you wouldn't (or is that woodn't?) have much.
That said, obviously it's the combination that gives the remarkable strength/ weight ratio and durability, not to mention the beauty..
If you just had the planking, carefully done, and no glass, you would still have a canoe. If you just had two layers of six ounce epoxied you wouldn't have much. Even if they were separated 1/4" by something less remarkable than wood you wouldn't (or is that woodn't?) have much.
That said, obviously it's the combination that gives the remarkable strength/ weight ratio and durability, not to mention the beauty..
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vann evans
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:52 pm
- Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Regarding the strength of fiberglass--I agree that the wood substructure adds strength, rigidity and certainly beauty. However, there are many boats(canoes, kayaks, c-1 and c-2 )that are made completely of fiberglass without any additional core or matrix materials.. I have eight of them -most are whitewater canoes that have 4 layers in the hull and 3 layers in the decks. they are still incredibly strong and rigid with no other reinforcement. many of the boats are made of polyester and vinylester resins-not even epoxy. One of them is heat cured epoxy.
I have built, used and repaired these whitewater and flatwater canoes/kayaks for over 20 years. they are incredibly durable, lightweight and easy to repair if necessary. I have seen some race boats that were as light as 2 layers. Lots of different types of cloth and weaves are available as well as carbon fibers, foam cores and other laminates. Modern fiberglass boat builders have an enormous selection of materials, resins and processes available to make boats light, durable and beautiful.
Vann Evans
I have built, used and repaired these whitewater and flatwater canoes/kayaks for over 20 years. they are incredibly durable, lightweight and easy to repair if necessary. I have seen some race boats that were as light as 2 layers. Lots of different types of cloth and weaves are available as well as carbon fibers, foam cores and other laminates. Modern fiberglass boat builders have an enormous selection of materials, resins and processes available to make boats light, durable and beautiful.
Vann Evans