Cedar strips - flat grain or edge grain
Cedar strips - flat grain or edge grain
Hoping to draw on the expertise of this forum ( I have learned a lot reading here) and gather some ideas of edge versus flat grain strips.
I am heading out tomorrow to look at my first sawmill to try and source lumber for my first canoe project. I plan on cutting my own strips as I already have most everything I need tool wise. Canoecraft suggests that flat grain is harder to work, but more interesting than edge grain sawn strips.
1) How much harder are the flat grain strips to work and sand? I realize this is very subjective, that's why I am just trying to get a handle on how deep the hole gets if I decide on flat grain.
2) Do flat and edge grain strips play well together visually?
3) Strip sizes seem to vary a bit from suppliers, is the sizing critical, or will strips within a range (say 5/8" to 7/8") work? I am pretty well decided on the Freedom Solo 16'2, and plan on easing the hard chine a bit on the mold and am leaning to thinner strips to help with that as well.
I would appreciate any experience, thoughts, ideas on the subject.
I am heading out tomorrow to look at my first sawmill to try and source lumber for my first canoe project. I plan on cutting my own strips as I already have most everything I need tool wise. Canoecraft suggests that flat grain is harder to work, but more interesting than edge grain sawn strips.
1) How much harder are the flat grain strips to work and sand? I realize this is very subjective, that's why I am just trying to get a handle on how deep the hole gets if I decide on flat grain.
2) Do flat and edge grain strips play well together visually?
3) Strip sizes seem to vary a bit from suppliers, is the sizing critical, or will strips within a range (say 5/8" to 7/8") work? I am pretty well decided on the Freedom Solo 16'2, and plan on easing the hard chine a bit on the mold and am leaning to thinner strips to help with that as well.
I would appreciate any experience, thoughts, ideas on the subject.
Re: Cedar strips - flat grain or edge grain
The answer to your flat/edge grain question is a personal one - both for asthetics and working properties.
Personally, I would not use flatgrain strips, nor would I mix flat with edge or quartersawn. Edge/quatersawn will work nice and even (for both sanding and planning). Although soft woods like cedar are soft and quite workable, I like having a nice consistent surface that the edge/quartersawn provides - you don't get the same with flatgrain. If you do any planning and/or spokeshaving on your hull, you will find that flatsawn tends to produce tear-out if you are not careful. You can still get tear-out in edge/quartersawn if you go the wrong way ( ie against the grain run-out). Personally, I don't use the plane or spokeshave on the hull much. I like to use a nice, sharp thin cabinet scraper (well worth buying if you have not already considered it - I recommend the ones from Lee Valley - don't bother with the holder)
Conditions where I would consider flatsawn - if the wood was free and I could not get anything else.
My comment on strip size - the size it is not too critical. If you have some drastic transitions bear your stems, the narrower ones work better. If there is not an agressive change (not a significant rotation over a short length), then you can go with a wider strip. Wider strips cover ground faster, but also produce more "chunky" transitions between strips (in the curved areas). This requires a bit more planing/sanding/scraping.
I have used 5/8", 3/4", and 7/8". I did not like the 7/8" strips I had, so I off-loaded them to a buddy. I now target a 3/4" strip for general build applications and machine down to 5/8" or less for any tight areas.
Snowman
Personally, I would not use flatgrain strips, nor would I mix flat with edge or quartersawn. Edge/quatersawn will work nice and even (for both sanding and planning). Although soft woods like cedar are soft and quite workable, I like having a nice consistent surface that the edge/quartersawn provides - you don't get the same with flatgrain. If you do any planning and/or spokeshaving on your hull, you will find that flatsawn tends to produce tear-out if you are not careful. You can still get tear-out in edge/quartersawn if you go the wrong way ( ie against the grain run-out). Personally, I don't use the plane or spokeshave on the hull much. I like to use a nice, sharp thin cabinet scraper (well worth buying if you have not already considered it - I recommend the ones from Lee Valley - don't bother with the holder)
Conditions where I would consider flatsawn - if the wood was free and I could not get anything else.
My comment on strip size - the size it is not too critical. If you have some drastic transitions bear your stems, the narrower ones work better. If there is not an agressive change (not a significant rotation over a short length), then you can go with a wider strip. Wider strips cover ground faster, but also produce more "chunky" transitions between strips (in the curved areas). This requires a bit more planing/sanding/scraping.
I have used 5/8", 3/4", and 7/8". I did not like the 7/8" strips I had, so I off-loaded them to a buddy. I now target a 3/4" strip for general build applications and machine down to 5/8" or less for any tight areas.
Snowman
Snowman back East
Re: Cedar strips - flat grain or edge grain
Thanks for the fast reply Snowman, It is all very useful.
I now have a better idea of what I need to look for in grain pattern for the wood and that there is some leeway in the thickness of wood I cut for the strips. It is one thing to "think" you get it from what the book says and an entirely different one when you have someone share actual experience.
The scraper versus the spoke and plane sounds like a really practical idea for the hull, I like that and it will be the way I start, once the hull is ready. Lee Valley is a favourite place of mine, so any excuse to go there is good.
I plan to keep track of all the strips by board and grain direction as I cut them, to keep the grain going a single direction to minimize the issues of smoothing the hull on completion.
Thanks for the fast reply.
I now have a better idea of what I need to look for in grain pattern for the wood and that there is some leeway in the thickness of wood I cut for the strips. It is one thing to "think" you get it from what the book says and an entirely different one when you have someone share actual experience.
The scraper versus the spoke and plane sounds like a really practical idea for the hull, I like that and it will be the way I start, once the hull is ready. Lee Valley is a favourite place of mine, so any excuse to go there is good.
I plan to keep track of all the strips by board and grain direction as I cut them, to keep the grain going a single direction to minimize the issues of smoothing the hull on completion.
Thanks for the fast reply.
Re: Cedar strips - flat grain or edge grain
Cruiser
I always buy slash, or flat grain planks. When you look at the end of the plank, it should look like a half moon.
When you cut the strips from these planks, you end up with quarter sawn strips. They are the best, stable and strong.
I always loved going on "THE HUNT" for planks ! Remember the best planks are always at the bottom of the stack !
Good luck !
Jim
I always buy slash, or flat grain planks. When you look at the end of the plank, it should look like a half moon.
When you cut the strips from these planks, you end up with quarter sawn strips. They are the best, stable and strong.
I always loved going on "THE HUNT" for planks ! Remember the best planks are always at the bottom of the stack !
Good luck !
Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!
- Patricks Dad
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:11 pm
- Location: Warrenville, Illinois
Re: Cedar strips - flat grain or edge grain
The only place I have cut/used flat grained strips in boat building is for ribs. They bend more nicely if they are flat grained. But for stripping, I would only use edge grain strips (typically cut from flat-grain planks).
As for the hard shoulder chine on the Freedom Solo, I suggest you simply flatten the point on the molds to create a 3/8" (or so) wide surface and start with a strip there and then go both directions from there. This will allow you to later round over the chine nicely leaving it distinct yet not so harsh. Be sure to take into account the bead/cove and your actual strip width and match your mold flat part accordingly.
here's a pic of the inside with my first 3 strips in place (I believe that the strips are 7/8" other than the strip on the shoulder chine):
and 155 more where this came from.
As for the hard shoulder chine on the Freedom Solo, I suggest you simply flatten the point on the molds to create a 3/8" (or so) wide surface and start with a strip there and then go both directions from there. This will allow you to later round over the chine nicely leaving it distinct yet not so harsh. Be sure to take into account the bead/cove and your actual strip width and match your mold flat part accordingly.
here's a pic of the inside with my first 3 strips in place (I believe that the strips are 7/8" other than the strip on the shoulder chine):
and 155 more where this came from.
Re: Cedar strips - flat grain or edge grain
PD,
I was going to shave off that chine a tad. Looking at the picture you posted, it looks like there is a small strip added at apex of the chine that the regular strips butt against to form the turn. The description doesn't match that, so now I am a bit confused. BTW, nice pic ... very clear.
I just got back from the sawmill and what they had wasn't going to make suitable full length strips, so they are making a few calls and are going to check their white cedar stock as well, but that may have a few small tight knots, which I don't think are an issue. If I can't find full length pieces, scarfing doesn't seem too difficult, so I may be going that route.
Comments on the grain are appreciated ...
I was going to shave off that chine a tad. Looking at the picture you posted, it looks like there is a small strip added at apex of the chine that the regular strips butt against to form the turn. The description doesn't match that, so now I am a bit confused. BTW, nice pic ... very clear.
I just got back from the sawmill and what they had wasn't going to make suitable full length strips, so they are making a few calls and are going to check their white cedar stock as well, but that may have a few small tight knots, which I don't think are an issue. If I can't find full length pieces, scarfing doesn't seem too difficult, so I may be going that route.
Comments on the grain are appreciated ...
- Patricks Dad
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:11 pm
- Location: Warrenville, Illinois
Re: Cedar strips - flat grain or edge grain
Not sure what "description" you are referring to, but I think your understanding of my picture is correct. I simply took my belt sander and flattened the point on the forms making way for a single narrow strip to rest there. The adjacent strips mated (bead & cove style) with this narrow strip. This made rounding over the outside easy without worrying about taking too much off.
I think the original plans (perhaps this is what you were referring to) showed two strips meeting at the sharp point
I think the original plans (perhaps this is what you were referring to) showed two strips meeting at the sharp point
Re: Cedar strips - flat grain or edge grain
PD,
So that narrow strip is also cove and bead?
That is a pretty slick adaptation to the chine, just basically make a thin strip at that point, cove and bead ... have to be careful making that one I imagine, not very big.
Well, I have to finish regaining my workshop ( read that "clean garage out) and find a wood supplier, this is Ontario, I never imagined it would be too hard to find suitable wood. If I have to go farther afield, I may have to buy enough for the next couplr to make the trip worthwhile.
Thanks for the clarification.
So that narrow strip is also cove and bead?
That is a pretty slick adaptation to the chine, just basically make a thin strip at that point, cove and bead ... have to be careful making that one I imagine, not very big.
Well, I have to finish regaining my workshop ( read that "clean garage out) and find a wood supplier, this is Ontario, I never imagined it would be too hard to find suitable wood. If I have to go farther afield, I may have to buy enough for the next couplr to make the trip worthwhile.
Thanks for the clarification.
Re: Cedar strips - flat grain or edge grain
Jim,
I always found the same thing with boards, best were buried, unfortunately .... this afternoon the deeper I went in the stack, well, i was just deeper in the stack, with no good planks.
However, talking with the owner , he said he knew some one who had a lumber yard in 69 and went out of business, but kept a whole barn of cedar. He is going to call the guy and see if he wants to sell any and if I can come root through it if he will. That sounds promising, and would add a great sidebar to the construction story (using 40 year old wood).
I always found the same thing with boards, best were buried, unfortunately .... this afternoon the deeper I went in the stack, well, i was just deeper in the stack, with no good planks.
However, talking with the owner , he said he knew some one who had a lumber yard in 69 and went out of business, but kept a whole barn of cedar. He is going to call the guy and see if he wants to sell any and if I can come root through it if he will. That sounds promising, and would add a great sidebar to the construction story (using 40 year old wood).
- Patricks Dad
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:11 pm
- Location: Warrenville, Illinois
Re: Cedar strips - flat grain or edge grain
Yes, the narrow strip is bead & cove as well. If you choose to use bead & cove for that strip, I suggest you wait until you have milled it before you snip the point off your forms to ensure you get the right size landing zone for the narrow strip. It will be narrower than the width of the strip (the bead should over-hang to mate with the adjacent strip).
In my case, I choose a particularly dark strip for that narrow strip and used it as an accent strip for the boat.
In my case, I choose a particularly dark strip for that narrow strip and used it as an accent strip for the boat.
-
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:00 pm
Re: Cedar strips - flat grain or edge grain
For most woodwork, I prefer to have a quarter sawn surface to finish and look at, and cut my strips to best achieve this. I found the 3/4" (5/8" effective width after machining with bead and cove) to work quite well, especially when bending and twisting and curving them at the stems.
I had really wanted to build the 16'2" Freedom Solo, but unfortunately did not give me the capacity I desired. The design I did go with has the same sharp shoulders as the FS does though. I just did angled butt joints and that worked well for me. Having never seen this done, I was just winging it, and had not thought to even try what Randy did.
This is the first angle from the shear, and this first strip just butts up to the shear strips. I ripped it at 45°, and adjusted the angle as needed with a plane. All these strips had the bead left on the other side to adjoin the next row.
I then just ran the strips past the next corner.
Then did the same rolling angle on the first strip down (or up depending how you look at it) the side. After the glue set, it was easy to get rid of the excess on the shoulder by planing it off. When fairing the hull, I then put a nice radius on this outside corner.
I had really wanted to build the 16'2" Freedom Solo, but unfortunately did not give me the capacity I desired. The design I did go with has the same sharp shoulders as the FS does though. I just did angled butt joints and that worked well for me. Having never seen this done, I was just winging it, and had not thought to even try what Randy did.
This is the first angle from the shear, and this first strip just butts up to the shear strips. I ripped it at 45°, and adjusted the angle as needed with a plane. All these strips had the bead left on the other side to adjoin the next row.
I then just ran the strips past the next corner.
Then did the same rolling angle on the first strip down (or up depending how you look at it) the side. After the glue set, it was easy to get rid of the excess on the shoulder by planing it off. When fairing the hull, I then put a nice radius on this outside corner.
-JIM-
Re: Cedar strips - flat grain or edge grain
Finding a barn full of cedar JUST MAKES ME DROOL !!!
NO BETTER REASON TO BUILD AT LEAST A DOZEN CANOES, AND MAYBE A COUPLE KAYAKS !!! Good Luck ! !
As for stripping a 16'2" Freedom solo, using bead and cove, I'd start my first strip at the shearline side of that corner.
I would strip toward the shear, and then go back to the corner and strip towards the keel. Just how I would try it .
Either way you do it, it
seems a challenge.
Jim
NO BETTER REASON TO BUILD AT LEAST A DOZEN CANOES, AND MAYBE A COUPLE KAYAKS !!! Good Luck ! !
As for stripping a 16'2" Freedom solo, using bead and cove, I'd start my first strip at the shearline side of that corner.
I would strip toward the shear, and then go back to the corner and strip towards the keel. Just how I would try it .
Either way you do it, it
seems a challenge.
Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!
Re: Cedar strips - flat grain or edge grain
EXACTLY what I was looking for, Jim. In everything I've read about making your own planks they talk about quarter sawn but I never knew if they meant the board from which I was making the planks or the planks themselves. Now I know to look for FLAT SAWN boards that I will turn into quarter sawn strips.Jim Dodd wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2013 8:42 am Cruiser
I always buy slash, or flat grain planks. When you look at the end of the plank, it should look like a half moon.
When you cut the strips from these planks, you end up with quarter sawn strips. They are the best, stable and strong.
I always loved going on "THE HUNT" for planks ! Remember the best planks are always at the bottom of the stack !
Good luck !
Jim