Outside wetout / seeing weave and seeing RED

WayneM · Post by **WayneM** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:49 pm

David James

I haven't seen this many replies to one post so quickly since joining the forum. Its all good info and reflects everyone's experience(s) with epoxy, so I'm going to add one more experience. My experience was "like yours" but when I finished, I found that what I had experienced was like what "Bud" was saying. Are you really seeing the cloth, or do you just need another fill coat? Mine was a bit of a combination of what your are describing, some "weave pattern" was showing instead of being fully filled. When I scraped & sanded, I found that I didn't have nearly the problem I thought I had. I went so far as to put a 4th coat of epoxy on, after I had sanded and scraped, and it turned out looking pretty decent. This stuff seems scary to apply, but its a little more forgiving than we imagine. Good luck and forge ahead. With all the good advice on the forum, if this one isn't what you expected, your next one will be.

David James · Post by **David James** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:29 am

Guys, thanks to all for your replies and concern.
Bud, this afternoon I'll get the camera out and see about some shots for the forum.
What Im' seeing isn't a texture thing (which would be a fill coat problem?) but rather the white / silver fibers under the surface. I used LOTS of epoxy and watched the clock. I'm wondering if I brushed the stuff on a little to aggressively and upset the weave.

Gotta get to work - Thanks again, Dave

David James · Post by **David James** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:08 pm

Here are two pictures of my canoe.

The close-up is of the stern. The flash really makes the fiber show and so will the sunlight I'm afraid. I don't want to overdo it with this post guys, but I a few more of your opinions now that you see the problem would be a great help to me.
Then we'll move on to other things.

Dave, in Glenview, Illinois

P.S. So, I've got a canoe with fiberglass showing through the epoxy - too many people down south have nothing left after that hurricane. Know what I mean??

Glen Smith · Post by **Glen Smith** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:16 pm

That area near the stem, do you feel the ripples (dimples) when you run your hand over it? Is it like this just in a few places or all over the hull?

I believe you used West 105/207 epoxy and brushed on the first coat then squeegeed, right? Please tell us how you did the next two coats.

David James · Post by **David James** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:32 pm

Glen, I used West Systems 105/207 epoxy. I do not feel any dimples on the hull now - it's very smooth.
First coat:
I used a 2 1/2" black natural bristle brush to apply first coat and left it alone for the required twenty minutes. Then I squeegeed. I'm wondering if I brushed the first coat on too aggressively; I applied it with a painting motion. Should I have dabbed it on without dragging the brush accross the fiber so much? Get it on there and leave it alone?? (I think this is where the trouble started - too much messing with it)
Second coat:
Brushed a generous amount of epoxy on the bottom third of the hull (as directed) and dragged it up to the centerline with the squeegy, the purpose of this coat being to fill in any low spots.
Third coat:
Brushed on a thick coat - just thick enough without runs. (I have a few, but expect the sanding to take care of these.)

Post by **Patricks Dad** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:37 pm

Just as I suspected. It looks beautiful. I can find lots of those little spots on our canoe too but as you know it was part of our master plan and it was very difficult to get them just that way.... :eyebrows

Glen Smith · Post by **Glen Smith** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:47 pm

One more question: for the third coat, did you brush it on in any particular way? Did you follow Ted's technique of brushing out vertically, on both diagonals, then horizontally to get an even coat?

Even following Ted's methods I have had some spots look like yours except I could still feel the weave on the surface. Apparently I didn't apply enough epoxy at the stems during the third coat.

If you can't feel the weave, then maybe you did disrupt it with aggressive brushing during the wetout coat. It really doesn't look very bad in the photos. When you sand the epoxy, if you see the weave showing up in these areas only, the cloth could be floating in the epoxy. You could ignore the present appearance or you could sand the hull and roll on one final coat of epoxy to see if there is an improvement.

I really don't think it is worth worrying about, nobody will ever notice it.

I just read Randy's post and you could say like he does: "I used designer cloth".

Bud · Post by **Bud** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:02 pm

I agree with Glen and Randy. Sometimes there are "spots" that show this silvery "fishscale" even when you do everything right. Once you get some coats of varnish over the top of it, it won't be as noticable.
Other than that, which is minor, it looks great.

I really like the "striped" appearance, and the different widths of striping. SHARP!
Gonna be a good looking boat.
Bud

davidb54321 · Post by **davidb54321** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:50 pm

We are our own worst critics! Rightfully so, we have spent hours doing the best job that we can, often doing things over in search of perfection. Then......something happens that we did not anticipate and we can't sleep. As someone else on the forum once said we spend months with our face inches from the hull. Once we are done and enjoying our boat, no one will notice but you(and all of us fellow builders). Great work, Dave and don't get discouraged, it really does look great.

Look at John Michne's site before you go much further to get ready for the inside.

Good Luck, David

[imghttp://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/davidb54321/IM000191.jpg[/img]

KARKAUAI · Post by **KARKAUAI** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:42 pm

I, too have some spots that look like that, and as I said in a previous post, they are due to incomplete saturation of the glass that occurred when I was wetting out with a roller that had been used for almost the whole hull, and mixing batches that started to set up before I completely saturated the glass. The only way to get rid of them is to remove the glass by sanding or heat and patching. I had one area that I had to do like that and I can't even find it now except for a couple of spots where I sanded down to the wood that are a little darker than the surrounding wood. The few other places where I have the same problem are obvious to me, but of the dozens of people who've admired the canoe, not a one has paused over those areas of the canoe or asked what that was. I'd also comment that except for tight areas on the inside of the stems, I avoid using a brush to spread the epoxy for the fill coat. I find that I roll or squeegy fairly agressively in multiple directions to get the glass saturated, and using a brush it's easy to disrupt the weave or make the glass slide...although I don't think that's your problem in the area shown in the picture. I use a roller and tip with a brush for the fill coats. MAS slow epoxy.

Bryan Hansel · Post by **Bryan Hansel** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:04 pm

I wouldn't worry about it too much. I'll agree with the above two posts; it looks like the glass was starved on the first coat in these places. After a couple coats of varnish, you shouldn't really notice it too much. On the positive side, if you squeegeed the rest of the boat aggressively, at least, it will be light!!!!! You should see the inside of my freedom, which was my first go at fiberglassing. I have so much extra epoxy in there it looks like the surface of Lake Superior after a good three day blow.

When you're finished, not only will your canoe look good, but you'll have built on of the best tandem canoes on the market. I love mine. I bet you'll love yours.

Juneaudave · Post by **Juneaudave** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:34 am

I would be surprised if anyone ever noticed. That canoe looks great!

davidb54321 · Post by **davidb54321** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:46 pm

Dave, I have added a few pictures of my Prospector. I have some areas where the glass got starved somewhat due to temperature problems(too low) so I got some uneven absorbtion. People who visit don't see it but it glares at me!

Dave