Adding a keel?

[DortoH]

I have had my Rob Roy out a few times now (pictures are coming) and way back when i ordered the stuff from Noah's Marine I got a piece of ash that was to be installed as an optional keel. It's 3/4" x 3/4" x 13'

I did not install this figuring I could easily add it, but it would be very difficult to remove.

What effect would adding a keel do?

[Jack in Stoughton]

Yes, it would be difficult to remove. Try the canoe before you varnish it. If it tracks well don't install it. My first canoe was a 16' Laker...very flat bottom. When I tried to turn it the canoe turned to a new heading but continued on the same course over the bottom...kind of skidding kitty corner. I added a keel.

If you add it you have to remember it is down there when you skid over rocks or logs. It will put more stress on the bottom when cartopping as the hold down strap will have a pressure point.

Good luck.

[philz]

I have a 13' Gilpatrick Laker without a keel. I like being able to turn it in a circle when I'm fishing, and going over weeds is simple without a keel. The problem is the sideways motion when you try to turn in the middle of a lake.
The keel on my father's grumman canoe was only about 1/4", maybe 1/2" and I was starting to think about adding 2 - 18" keels about 1/4" high just behind the outer stem at both ends of the canoe. This may add to the tracking in the wind without adding too much drag in the weeds. Has anyone already tried this?

[Todd Bradshaw]

Without meaning to offend anyone, paddling well is a skill and learning it isn't an instant process. Keel additions are one of those things that come up fairly frequently and I can't help but think that in many of those cases the problem may well not be with the boat or it's design, but with the paddler and his or her current position on the learning curve. I tend to get the same feeling when it comes to adding rudders to most kayaks. Chances are quite good that two years down the road these folks may paddle well enough in that particular boat, or any boat for that matter, that the keel becomes more of a hindrance to paddling than an aid. Adding these things right off the bat to attempt to fix control problems may help somewhat, but may even retard their progress up the ladder of paddling skill. Canoe keels always struck me as the white man's attempt to make up for his lack of paddling skill by screwing a stick onto the bottom of what had previously been a highly evolved and nearly perfect native invention. Maybe that's a little harsh, but you get my drift.

A keel is actually a very inefficient means of increasing tracking or reducing the boat blowing around. Lack of rocker, waterline shape and lower stem profiles which increase waterline length nearly to overall hull length are much more effective ways to achieve these goals and do it without increasing drag or wetted surface area. If you've ever paddled a marathon racing boat, you know what I mean. They track like they're on rails, yet have no keel.

Granted, if you decide to take a big, 18' tandem touring boat out by yourself on a windy day, you may well blow around a lot. A keel could prevent some of this, but when the boat was obviously not designed to be a solo, windy weather canoe, it seems strange to increase it's vulnerability to everything from rot to rock damage and reduce it's ability to maneuver in order for it to possibly work better at doing something that it clearly wasn't designed to do.

Being able to move sideways is one of the great advantages of both canoes in general and propelling them with single-bladed paddles. Very few other types of boats or other propulsion methods are as adept at "moving over two feet to get to the dock" for example. Boats propelled by oars, or even to some extent kayak paddles often make such simple tasks awkward by comparison and having to drag a keel with you just limits your canoe's ability to perform at those times when just going in a straight line isn't your goal. Some of my most memorable paddling over the past forty years or so has involved going sideways. Easing up right next to a cliff on Sarah Lake in the Quetico where on one side of the boat you see a rock wall running down into the water and on the other side, there is nothing because it's nearly 100 feet deep. Or sculling sideways through the shallows, perpendicular to the shore with the paddle's grip against my shoulder and that hand on the throat so that I could hold a fly rod in my free hand and troll slowly, twitching the fly to make it dance. I've slowly worked my way along deep boggy shores, paddling and sculling sideways, right against the bushes so that I could reach down and pick wild cranberries to add some life to what would have been another all too bland freeze-dried camp dinner. Or prying and drawing like crazy to skirt the boulders on whitewater runs and hit the "V" - the sweet spot through the maze of rocks and turbulence. I can remember a few times getting blown around on big lakes more than I would have liked, but those memories generally aren't the ones that really count and anything that hindered the ability of my canoes to move sideways would have also hindered the experiences. Sideways can be good -memorably good at times.

I realize that this is a rather long and romanticized way to answer a technical boat question, but these days, nobody HAS to go canoeing. We do it for enjoyment and some of us consider keels to quite often be little more than a hindrance to much of that enjoyment. For every advantage they might add in one situation, there is at least an equal disadvantage in a different situation, so it's not a decision to make without taking the whole picture into view. If you haven't yet developed the skills to gracefully handle a Rob Roy without having a keel, the chances are excellent that you will and it may not take very long. I'd paddle it for a season or two to really get used to it and then decide whether you still need one.

[jcolten]

Ditto what Todd said plus I'd add that a keel makes a noticable increase in wetted surface area and therefore, drag

Having said that, one has to ask ones self what kind of and how much paddling you will be doing. If you were sure to be a very occasional paddler, then the disadvantages of a keel are not so important. Here's an analogy I've used before:

When it came time to get our daughter her third flute (college level music classes), her instructor said "what ever you do, don't get a Yamaha" ... "but why, it's sounds nice and is so easy to play?" The reply was "It's easy to get it to do what IT wants you to do but for the music you need to learn, it's hard to get it to do what the composer wants you to do and it's hard to get it to do what'll thrill you in the next few years ... the Yamaha is perfectly fine for a casual musician who isn't trying to make a serious hobby or career out of it but not for you"

A keeled canoe makes it easy to do what it wants to do but hard to what the river or other circumstances require you to do.

[DortoH]

Well seems people have fairly strong opinions against one. I was curious as to what it might do, but must say I am even more curious now.

I think i may try and tack one on with some hot glue just to get a taste :)

[Dean in Eureka, CA]

Hey Hotrod,
I've got a better solution for you. Add a part time sail rig with leeboards and a rudder if you like.
I agree with Todd, he sure puts up some nice posts. I can just visualize him picking the berries and flyfishing while sculling the boat sideways. I think adding a keel to your Rob Roy would be like putting training wheels on a Harley. There did that help?

[DortoH]

LOL Training wheel on a Harley. I really have no problems with the canoe aside from my lack of skill.. But that is coming along, its almost like riding a bike, you never quite forget, but you do get rusty :)

Curiosity just gets the best of me sometimes, little hot glue won't hurt........

[Dean in Eureka, CA]

I was hoping that you would get a kick out of that.
Thanks for seeing the humor in it.
It's good to be curious, try it and share your thoughts afterwards, OK?

[DortoH]

It's good to be curious, try it and share your thoughts afterwards, OK?

Of course :)

[jcolten]

Would that be called a sidecar?

[Penetang Pete]

Without meaning to offend anyone, paddling well is a skill and learning it isn't an instant process. Keel additions are one of those things that come up fairly frequently and I can't help but think that in many of those cases the problem may well not be with the boat or it's design, but with the paddler and his or her current position on the learning curve. I tend to get the same feeling when it comes to adding rudders to most kayaks. Chances are quite good that two years down the road these folks may paddle well enough in that particular boat, or any boat for that matter, that the keel becomes more of a hindrance to paddling than an aid. Adding these things right off the bat to attempt to fix control problems may help somewhat, but may even retard their progress up the ladder of paddling skill. Canoe keels always struck me as the white man's attempt to make up for his lack of paddling skill by screwing a stick onto the bottom of what had previously been a highly evolved and nearly perfect native invention. Maybe that's a little harsh, but you get my drift.

A keel is actually a very inefficient means of increasing tracking or reducing the boat blowing around. Lack of rocker, waterline shape and lower stem profiles which increase waterline length nearly to overall hull length are much more effective ways to achieve these goals and do it without increasing drag or wetted surface area. If you've ever paddled a marathon racing boat, you know what I mean. They track like they're on rails, yet have no keel.

Granted, if you decide to take a big, 18' tandem touring boat out by yourself on a windy day, you may well blow around a lot. A keel could prevent some of this, but when the boat was obviously not designed to be a solo, windy weather canoe, it seems strange to increase it's vulnerability to everything from rot to rock damage and reduce it's ability to maneuver in order for it to possibly work better at doing something that it clearly wasn't designed to do.

Being able to move sideways is one of the great advantages of both canoes in general and propelling them with single-bladed paddles. Very few other types of boats or other propulsion methods are as adept at "moving over two feet to get to the dock" for example. Boats propelled by oars, or even to some extent kayak paddles often make such simple tasks awkward by comparison and having to drag a keel with you just limits your canoe's ability to perform at those times when just going in a straight line isn't your goal. Some of my most memorable paddling over the past forty years or so has involved going sideways. Easing up right next to a cliff on Sarah Lake in the Quetico where on one side of the boat you see a rock wall running down into the water and on the other side, there is nothing because it's nearly 100 feet deep. Or sculling sideways through the shallows, perpendicular to the shore with the paddle's grip against my shoulder and that hand on the throat so that I could hold a fly rod in my free hand and troll slowly, twitching the fly to make it dance. I've slowly worked my way along deep boggy shores, paddling and sculling sideways, right against the bushes so that I could reach down and pick wild cranberries to add some life to what would have been another all too bland freeze-dried camp dinner. Or prying and drawing like crazy to skirt the boulders on whitewater runs and hit the "V" - the sweet spot through the maze of rocks and turbulence. I can remember a few times getting blown around on big lakes more than I would have liked, but those memories generally aren't the ones that really count and anything that hindered the ability of my canoes to move sideways would have also hindered the experiences. Sideways can be good -memorably good at times.

I realize that this is a rather long and romanticized way to answer a technical boat question, but these days, nobody HAS to go canoeing. We do it for enjoyment and some of us consider keels to quite often be little more than a hindrance to much of that enjoyment. For every advantage they might add in one situation, there is at least an equal disadvantage in a different situation, so it's not a decision to make without taking the whole picture into view. If you haven't yet developed the skills to gracefully handle a Rob Roy without having a keel, the chances are excellent that you will and it may not take very long. I'd paddle it for a season or two to really get used to it and then decide whether you still need one.

Hey Todd,
Thanks for sharing your keel-less canoe philosophy. I loved it.
I think you should look at writing a book. I'd buy one.
Pete

[Dean in Eureka, CA]

Hey Todd,
I think you should look at writing a book. I'd buy one.
Pete

Pssst... Hey Pete,
Then you need to buy Canoe Rig.

[DortoH]

Well I taked a small 1/4" square piece of ash 10' long to the bottom of my canoe this weekend to try it out. Few dabs of hot glue was enough to stick it on temporarily.

Few interesting findings. Being a novice it was much easier to go straight, as expected, and much more difficult to turn, also as expected. Hard to tell if there was any signifigant increase in drag, it was quite windy and hard to get going so to speak.

That said, it did not help much in the wind having its way with me. Maybe it was too windy (35 Km/H) or the keel was too small. but any gusts from the side had me of course rather easily. Anyway the waters were much too rough for me so I headed back in after a very short trip.

Well anyway, I ripped it off as soon as I got home. Nothing a little paddling practice can't cure :)

Fun times !

[Todd Bradshaw]

Sounds like a plan. Give it a chance and I doubt you'll ever miss it. One thing that would be interesting to try sometime on a canoe, especially a small solo boat, would be a British sea kayak-style drop-down adjustable skeg at the sterm. I don't recall ever hearing of anyone putting one on a canoe, but they work superbly on kayaks. It's there when you want more tracking and gone when you don't. I have no use whatsoever for kayak rudders, even on doubles, but skegs are a whole different story.