Sorry, forgot to log on twice to really be logged on. :oops:
Todd, I'm going to be taking my kids canoe camping again tomorrow. I'm going to show my son and daughter a few things about flyfishing, so I'm going to try sculling sideways while working the fly line with my other hand. I've never tried that before and I'm curious to see how much control I'm going to have trying to do both at once. This place we're going has the perfect spot to try that. I think it would be so cool to get a good strike while attempting this. (I'll try to remember not to drop the paddle if that happens)
It shouldn't get too intense, the fish are all hatchery plants, but it should be a good time for the kids.
Fastest Bear Mountain Boats?
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Dean in Eureka, CA
- Posts: 267
- Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 10:23 am
- Location: Eureka, CA
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Dean in Eureka, CA
Dean in Eureka, CA
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KARKAUAI
- Posts: 362
- Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 3:06 pm
- Location: Hickory, NC / Princeville, Kauai, HI
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I guess that's you Dean, a welcome "guest". Paddle man is a stick figure that was carved in the walls of a cave in HI before Capn. Cook arrived. He's become a kind of icon for all kinds of water sports in HI. He's holding a paddle overhead as is customary for the winning canoe paddlers to do in the races they have. Actually, It's coming along a lot faster than I thought. I'm going crosseyed with all the closeup work, but still got about half way today with the pieces. Carved out the recess last nite, so I'll finish it tomorrow. I'm gluing the pieces in as I go with quick set epoxy, so it'll be ready to sand by Mon. I'm stoked!!!
Kent
Kent
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Dean in Eureka, CA
- Posts: 267
- Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 10:23 am
- Location: Eureka, CA
Aloha Kent,
Now that you mentioned it, I have seen Paddle Man before. I was just trying to get your goat with the mask and cape thing.
Todd,
No problem sculling the canoe.
Problem with flyfishing, pretty rusty.
Tied a few knots in my leader, lost about 1/3 of my leader, had problems just tying leader to #16 flies. Might be time to have my eyes examined for new glasses.
My daughter kicked butt fishing against my son and his friend. She found some tangled line with a hook, then tied it to a branch.
Now that you mentioned it, I have seen Paddle Man before. I was just trying to get your goat with the mask and cape thing.
Todd,
No problem sculling the canoe.
Problem with flyfishing, pretty rusty.
Tied a few knots in my leader, lost about 1/3 of my leader, had problems just tying leader to #16 flies. Might be time to have my eyes examined for new glasses.
My daughter kicked butt fishing against my son and his friend. She found some tangled line with a hook, then tied it to a branch.
Everything will be OK[img::]http://www.mikenchell.com/forums/images ... uryi3b.gif[/img]
Dean in Eureka, CA
Dean in Eureka, CA
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Guest
In order to fulfill my duty to the HANBORB, I will have to strongly dissagree with you, since the Redbird is truly the best/sleekest/swiftest/fastest canoe on the water (other than those crazy racing canoes). But if you must complain/dissagree, im sure Dean would happily challenge you to a race when he finishes his Redbird to prove once and for all that the Redbird is truly the faster canoe.
(How did I do, Dean?)
(How did I do, Dean?)
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Glen Smith
- Posts: 3719
- Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 9:08 am
- Location: Baie-St-Paul, Quebec, Canada
Fastest Bear Mountain Boat
Patrick, I think you should have disqualified the comment made by "guest" concerning the Winisk. He (or she) has stepped out of line by mentionning the Winisk when we are discussing "The fastest Bear Mountain Boat". The Winisk is not a Bear Mountain design! :roll:
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Guest
Well, I think the Huron I'm building will leave all the others far behind as mere specks on the horizon... smaller boat, less submerged surface area, therefore, it's faster. Seriously, doesn't the Freedom have finer entry lines than the Redbird, and so should be the faster boat... the asymmetrical hull was designed for this.
Well, point taken about the Winisk Glen. It is a John Winters/Green Valley design. I'm curious though by the Redbird comments. I know so many people love the boat, I'm thinking of building one myself. If it was truly faster than the Freedom I think it would have even more people looking at it.
Moonman
Moonman
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Dean in Eureka, CA
- Posts: 267
- Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 10:23 am
- Location: Eureka, CA
Hey Guy's,
For what it is worth, I did a section of the Trinity River yesterday in an old Coleman tub. Normally this stretch of river takes about 3 hrs. The Feds are trying to improve the salmon run situation on the Klammath River, so their solution is to increase the water flow in the Trinity, to at least get the salmon up to where the Trinity dumps into the Klammath River at Witchepec, CA, so as not to take any water away from the farmers farthur up the Klammath River Basin. With the increase of water being let out of Trinity Lake, it only took one hour to get through this run. An inner tube, would have been fast yesterday, providing that you could hang on to the tube. There were some incredible haystacks at several locations. If I would have had a choice yesterday, I would have went with a kayak instead, it got pretty hairy in that old tub, my bowperson got thrown out once, which swamped us. It took about 1/4 mile of river to get that old tub to the shore.
With this said, maybe it's time to bring up some deeper conversation on the design of canoes, like outer gunwales maybe? I could have used more of that yesterday, that's for sure!
I found out when we stopped afterward in Willow Creek to gas up, five people have already drowned in this section of river this summer. Local businesses in Willow Creek are offering free use of PFD's.
For what it is worth, I did a section of the Trinity River yesterday in an old Coleman tub. Normally this stretch of river takes about 3 hrs. The Feds are trying to improve the salmon run situation on the Klammath River, so their solution is to increase the water flow in the Trinity, to at least get the salmon up to where the Trinity dumps into the Klammath River at Witchepec, CA, so as not to take any water away from the farmers farthur up the Klammath River Basin. With the increase of water being let out of Trinity Lake, it only took one hour to get through this run. An inner tube, would have been fast yesterday, providing that you could hang on to the tube. There were some incredible haystacks at several locations. If I would have had a choice yesterday, I would have went with a kayak instead, it got pretty hairy in that old tub, my bowperson got thrown out once, which swamped us. It took about 1/4 mile of river to get that old tub to the shore.
With this said, maybe it's time to bring up some deeper conversation on the design of canoes, like outer gunwales maybe? I could have used more of that yesterday, that's for sure!
I found out when we stopped afterward in Willow Creek to gas up, five people have already drowned in this section of river this summer. Local businesses in Willow Creek are offering free use of PFD's.
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Dean in Eureka, CA
Dean in Eureka, CA
Hi, Dean.
While I'm not that much into whitewater, I've heard reports that with the Bear Mountain designs, the Prospectors actually perform fairly well, because of the large amount of rocker and the high ends. The rocker makes the boat turn easily to avoid rough spots, and the upturned ends help keep things dry when the bow gets buried plunging into a standing wave. Some depth to the sides also helps keep waves from coming over. Another thing with a large amount of rocker like the Prospector has - the center of gravity is a little lower, relative to the waterline, increasing stability in rough waves.
I wasn't planning on doing much whitewater in the Huron. It has less rocker and won't turn as easily, OTOH straightline tracking should be improved. The depth on the sides will also help keep the boat dry when the lake gets rough. Fine entry lines should allow the bow to slice through the waves, which may or may not be a good thing, I guess I'll find out later this summer.
I've heard that wide outwales will help keep water out, but haven't actually tried out a boat with those.
Rick
While I'm not that much into whitewater, I've heard reports that with the Bear Mountain designs, the Prospectors actually perform fairly well, because of the large amount of rocker and the high ends. The rocker makes the boat turn easily to avoid rough spots, and the upturned ends help keep things dry when the bow gets buried plunging into a standing wave. Some depth to the sides also helps keep waves from coming over. Another thing with a large amount of rocker like the Prospector has - the center of gravity is a little lower, relative to the waterline, increasing stability in rough waves.
I wasn't planning on doing much whitewater in the Huron. It has less rocker and won't turn as easily, OTOH straightline tracking should be improved. The depth on the sides will also help keep the boat dry when the lake gets rough. Fine entry lines should allow the bow to slice through the waves, which may or may not be a good thing, I guess I'll find out later this summer.
I've heard that wide outwales will help keep water out, but haven't actually tried out a boat with those.
Rick
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Dean in Eureka, CA
- Posts: 267
- Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 10:23 am
- Location: Eureka, CA
Hi Rick,
I agree with what you are saying.
First of all, I will never subject my Redbird to river conditions like I experienced yesterday, that's what those green plastic tubs are for.(IMO)
I only saw two other canoes yesterday when we were taking out, they were pretty beat up. One had gotten folded up over a rock. Everything else on the river was kayaks.
I guess the point I was trying to make was: being fast isn't what it's all about.
I am definately going to give some deep thought and consideration into my outer gunwales, even it makes the canoe look a bit "funny".
I agree with what you are saying.
First of all, I will never subject my Redbird to river conditions like I experienced yesterday, that's what those green plastic tubs are for.(IMO)
I only saw two other canoes yesterday when we were taking out, they were pretty beat up. One had gotten folded up over a rock. Everything else on the river was kayaks.
I guess the point I was trying to make was: being fast isn't what it's all about.
I am definately going to give some deep thought and consideration into my outer gunwales, even it makes the canoe look a bit "funny".
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Dean in Eureka, CA
Dean in Eureka, CA
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KARKAUAI
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Aloha, Guys ?& Gals,
The Hawaiians had an ingeneous lashing method for adding/changing gunwales for differing sea conditions. Might consider some kind of "add on" riser that would screw/clamp/lash/or some other connection to the sheerline when going into whitewater or choppy lake conditions. Their lashing method is complicated and must have taken days to do, probably done at the beginning of the rough winter season or for interisland trips. It certainly wouldn't be something you'd want to do for a daytrip. Still, the idea is pretty cool, and with all the modern methods available, I bet somebody could come up with a simple, quick method that would be functional and look nice.
Kent
The Hawaiians had an ingeneous lashing method for adding/changing gunwales for differing sea conditions. Might consider some kind of "add on" riser that would screw/clamp/lash/or some other connection to the sheerline when going into whitewater or choppy lake conditions. Their lashing method is complicated and must have taken days to do, probably done at the beginning of the rough winter season or for interisland trips. It certainly wouldn't be something you'd want to do for a daytrip. Still, the idea is pretty cool, and with all the modern methods available, I bet somebody could come up with a simple, quick method that would be functional and look nice.
Kent
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Jeff in Pembroke
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:26 am
This certainly has been an interesting discussion.
I spoke with Al Witham, someone who has built both the Redbird and the Freedom and has paddled them both. He feels they are both very fast boats. The Freedom might be a bit faster when fully loaded but he isn't really sure as he hasn't done a side by side comparison. Paddled empty, he doesn't think there's a difference. I guess the final choice would be an aesthetic one - which boat's lines does one prefer?
I don't know about the entry lines of the two hulls, but that is only one factor in boat speed. The Redbird has a narrower hull and likely has less wetted hull surface than the Freedom - this could make the Redbird theoretically faster. If the Freedom has a longer waterline length than the Redbird (I don't know if this is the case), that could make the Freedom faster. I expect paddling skill would play a big as big a role as hull design when comparing these two boats for speed.
Just to stir the pot further - which Redbird are we talking about? Ted Moore's original design had a maximum beam of 33 1/2" and a waterline beam of 31". The re-design by Steve Killing has a beam of 35". Depending on how the below waterline shape of the hull has been changed (the 'new' Redbird is apparently more stable) the performance of the hull may be different as well.
Aren't canoes wonderful!
Jeff
I spoke with Al Witham, someone who has built both the Redbird and the Freedom and has paddled them both. He feels they are both very fast boats. The Freedom might be a bit faster when fully loaded but he isn't really sure as he hasn't done a side by side comparison. Paddled empty, he doesn't think there's a difference. I guess the final choice would be an aesthetic one - which boat's lines does one prefer?
I don't know about the entry lines of the two hulls, but that is only one factor in boat speed. The Redbird has a narrower hull and likely has less wetted hull surface than the Freedom - this could make the Redbird theoretically faster. If the Freedom has a longer waterline length than the Redbird (I don't know if this is the case), that could make the Freedom faster. I expect paddling skill would play a big as big a role as hull design when comparing these two boats for speed.
Just to stir the pot further - which Redbird are we talking about? Ted Moore's original design had a maximum beam of 33 1/2" and a waterline beam of 31". The re-design by Steve Killing has a beam of 35". Depending on how the below waterline shape of the hull has been changed (the 'new' Redbird is apparently more stable) the performance of the hull may be different as well.
Aren't canoes wonderful!
Jeff