Perfection Varnish Question

[Dana]

I would like to know if any users of the Perfection two part varnish have had any problems with cracking ( larger or tiny spider type cracking ) in any way from the flexing of the canoe. This is my first stripper and I just don’t know if they flex or how much.

I hear the Perfection varnish is extra hard and clear and I would like to use it on my Eastern White Cedar Bob’s Special to help retain the white colour fo the wood and cut down on the amber colour if possible. I did some tests mixing Mas slow and fast hardener and found I can increase the clarity of the epoxy by mixing the clear fast hardener with the amber slow hardener. Even as little as %25 fast to slow made quite a difference in the clarity. Comments on the experiences you had applying the varnish would also be of interest to me. How many coats did you apply?

And finally I wonder if the cedar will just darken up with time anyway and how much?
Comments from white cedar builders?

Thanks to this site and those of some of the builders here I got the confidence to go ahead and build my first stripper . . . so far so good.

With thanks . . . Dana

[Chuck in Pa]

I used perfection on my kayak.

It adds absolutely no color to the boat, nothing but gloss. There are no problems with cracking, my kayak is considerably stiffer than any commercial kayak or canoe, simply because of the method of construction. It is an extremely hard varnish, but don't expect it to stop many scratches. A rock will cut through anything you could put on a kayak. I like it because I feel it has more UV protectors in it, so it will lengthen time between varnishing, and I need fewer coats every time. Downside is that, despite what some people say, it is harder to repair. You need to accurately mix up a coat and apply it, rather then being able to just rub a little varnish into a scratch. I didn't put too much effort into my finish, but I feel the varnish helped me get what seems to the untrained eye to be a very good coat of varnish. It is harder to apply properly, but looks better even when not done perfectly.

One other downside is application. While putting the first coat on, I had a mask, but nothing truly up to the task. I could smell the varnish, but it didn't bother me. when I went back out a little later I realized that I had just gotten used to the smell while applying it, but it is strong enough to knock you out if you aren't careful. There were strong fumes leaking onto our porch for about three days. Be very careful around it. I would even recommend having someone inside check on you every 10 minutes while applying the varnish.

-Chuck

[Juneaudave]

Hi Dana...Here we go again on the varnish! Sounds like Chuck liked Perfection on his kayak, but I'm wondering if the benefits (hardness, clarity and UV protection) outweigh the benefits of spar (ease of use, ease of repair, lack of overwhelming odors, and lets face it, spar has been around a long time and is tested).

Regarding changing colors, I put my yellow ceder Bob's out in the sun on purpose this summer to mellow out the colors. It was really bright and I wanted to see if the strips got a bit more homogenous. Granted, Juneau Alaska doesn't have a lot of sun and the temps certainly don't get much over 75 degrees, but...I think it did change very, very slightly (not much), My conclusion is that the colour is not really going to change much in the short term...but it will over time whether from the aging of the wood or the subsequent coats of varnish. I have heard that you can get staining from certain woods due to age. Maybe...it's not such a hot idea to intentionally age the wood once you have fiberglassed and varnished the wood., and maybe, its a crap shoot wondering how much color of the wood will change over time.

[Chuck in Pa]

:I'm wondering if the benefits (hardness, clarity and UV protection) outweigh the
:benefits of spar (ease of use, ease of repair, lack of overwhelming odors, and lets
:face it, spar has been around a long time and is tested).

For the record, two part polyurethanes have been around a long time too, and in fact, they may be more like they were 25 years ago than many spar varnishes are. It also wasn't very hard to apply, just hard to apply at the level it is intended to be applied. This might seem like a weird way to say it, but I think for the same quality of application you will get an equal finish, but you have the capability to get a better finish with a two part poly.

That said, I agree that it isn't worth it for many people. A good spar varnish (not minwax) has enough protection to do its job well. And the fumes are certainly not good for you. I used it as much for fun as anything else.

As to color changes, I think you're right about epoxy and varnish essentially stopping most color changes. Most, if not all, change in wood is caused by moistures, air, and light ( UV rays) all of which are excluded from the wood once you epoxy and varnish it. You might get some, and over the years, as the epoxy gets exposed to more and more UV rays because of imperfect and aging varnish the epoxy will darken. Someone might want to experiment with "aging" unvarnished wood panels with and without epoxy and seeing if he can change the color.

My two cents
-Chuck

[GaryDierking]

When I was trying to decide whether or not use Perfection varnish, my dealer told me that while it does cure much harder it doesn't last any longer in the sun., and that I'd be recoating just as often.

[Dana]

Thanks for the feedback on the varnish.

If I weren’t so interested in retaining the white colour of the white cedar I’m sure I’d just go ahead and use the tried and true Captains or Flagship varnish. If the boat was made of red cedar the colour of the epoxy and varnish wouldn’t really be an issue I don’t think.

Its good to hear the Perfection varnish is so clear and I’m still interested in giving it a try for that reason. I remain concerned about it being so hard that there might be a problem with any flexing of the canoe ( if there is any ) causing any kind of cracking. Its good to know you had no problems with cracking Chuck, but you mention your Kayak is pretty rigid so I’m still a little concerned about that issue. .

If I knew it had been used on some stripper type canoes without any cracking problems I’d probably put on my respirator mask and go to it. I hope there is someone out there who has used it on their stripper canoe and can comment on that concern, otherwise I’d be reluctant to experiment with it for that reason.

One way or another I’m sure it will end up looking very nice. I coated a test panel of strips made of the white cedar I used on the sides and the light red heartwood strips I used on the bottom with epoxy and I’m very pleased with the way it looks. The light red heartwood in particular looks very interesting, having a bright red and translucent look to it.

Thanks again for the input. . . Dana.

[Chuck in Pa]

:When I was trying to decide whether or not use Perfection varnish, my dealer told me
:that while it does cure much harder it doesn't last any longer in the sun., and that I'd be
:recoating just as often.

I agree, of you're recoating because of sun damage. Remember that this varnish is intended for boats that spend 7 months outside under full sun. I store my kayak inside above any windows, so it will likely get less sun exposure inits life than the varnish can take in a year. I'm more worried about getting milky areas where the varnish has scratched off, a real possiblity for me, since I'm not afraid of riding my boat right up on the rocks in order to get out without falling in.

Dana, I think you have a very good reason for using Perfection, and I hope it all turns out well. I think even a stripper canoe should have no problem. while it does flex, it's nothing like what you would need to cause cracking. I think you would have problems with the laminate weakening from that much flexing. Anyway, if you really had any trouble, it would only be a light sanding and a coat of regular varnish to fix it.

-Chuck

[Rick]

The West people say it'll be OK -

Epoxy with two-part polyurethanes
Two-part clear polyurethanes are known for superior UV resistance and scratch resistance compared to traditional varnishes, but they have shown mixed results when applied directly to wood. They also tend to develop cracks due to expansion/contraction of the wood. Two to three coats of epoxy also provide a stable base for clear two-part polyurethane finishes. Applied over epoxy, they perform beautifully together and outlast either coating used by itself.

http://www.westsystem.com/webpages/epox ... rnish.html

I'm also using EWC building my Huron, the warm golden color of traditional varnish is something I like, so I'm going with it.

[Guest]

Yes, it looks like Perfection Varnish ( formerly known as Interthane Plus ) should be ok on the canoe. Interesting how it is kayak builders using it, like the people at One Ocean for example.

http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Wshophtm/Shop28.htm

I haven’t actually heard from anyone who has used it on a canoe yet so maybe I’ll be the first here to try it. I expect I’ll have made my final decision by the time I finish sanding and glassing the hull. The whole idea has been to keep the white wood white if I can because I was so pleased at how it looked once I sanded off the glue. If I end up using it I’ll report back on how it went. By this fall I hope.

Until then if anyone has used it on a canoe I’m sure I’m not the only one who would like to hear about it.

Dana

[Jeff in Pembroke]

I used Perfection Varnish on my canoe and it worked superbly well. The boat has only been in the water for about 6 weeks so I can't comment on longterm results. However, on a recent 5 day trip I slipped at the end of a portage and the canoe fell from about 5 ft in the air onto a big tree root growing across a boulder. There is about a 1 X 2 inch area of visible glass weave at the impact spot (sadly, it's a canoe now and not a piece of furniture). I think the glass fibers stretched at the impact point but the epoxy is intact and, more to your question, the varnish was completely unmarked - no scratches, cracks, or crazing. There are a few superficial scratches elsewhere on the hull where we bumped against rocks hauling the canoe up some steep shorelines. They touched up easily with a light sanding and a very thin recoating of varnish. I used a pair of 5 cc plastic syringes to mix up very small batches (3cc resin and 1cc hardener) to touch up the scratches.
The clarity of Perfection was ideal for my canoe (EWC with black walnut and some birds eye maple). I think you'll be happy with it and don't worry about brittleness, I don't think it's any cause for concern.

Happy building

Jeff