Hello again...
In a previous post, I mentioned I'm building my first canoe. The folks on the forum came to my rescue on my first technical question, and I'm grateful.
So here's my second question. Being new at this, I'm thinking that I won't try stapleless construction for my first build - (maybe next time!). But I'm also thinking that instead of staples, I could use 1" finishing nails for attaching strips.
Has anyone done this? Will the nails hold sufficiently to keep everything tight? My forms are 1/2" particle board. My thinking is that one finishing nail hole per station will fill in better than staple holes. Any opinions?
Thanks again...
1" Finishing Nails vs Staples
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Rehd Brown
- Posts: 148
- Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:23 pm
- Location: Fresno, California
I think you'll find a stapler is MUCH easier to work with. One hand holding the strip in place and the other on the stapler.
With hammer and nail in hand... holding the strip tightly in place might be a little tricky if it's being torqued by twisting or bending. Just a thought.
If you're going to clamp it to hold it for nailing, then leave the clamp on and you've gone staple-less.
Rehd
With hammer and nail in hand... holding the strip tightly in place might be a little tricky if it's being torqued by twisting or bending. Just a thought.
If you're going to clamp it to hold it for nailing, then leave the clamp on and you've gone staple-less.
Rehd
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mikestenger
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 9:38 am
I built my boat (just completed) without staples and found it to be fun and interesting. May be my ONLY boat but it turned out well. I used small plywood 'U' shaped pieces backed with sandpaper to hold the strips in place with a C Clamp clamped to the form. This is no doubt slower than staples but avoids the staple lines. Canoecraft explains the process adequately for this novice to follow. I laid a strip on one side with the clamps and then laid a strip on the other side. Since the glue sets up fairly quickly, I could lay four or five strips per side per day this way.
The only mistake I made while stripping was not paying enough attention to the inside of the boat. When I took the boat off the forms to sand the inside, I had too much glue runoff inside which could have been avoided with a wet rag while stripping.
The only mistake I made while stripping was not paying enough attention to the inside of the boat. When I took the boat off the forms to sand the inside, I had too much glue runoff inside which could have been avoided with a wet rag while stripping.
15' Bob's Special...Boat completed in late October 2007.
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Glen Smith
- Posts: 3719
- Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 9:08 am
- Location: Baie-St-Paul, Quebec, Canada
I started stapleless, or at least with minimal staples, then eventually just started using staples due to simplicity and ease. To each his/her own.
I would definitely use staples rather than nails for the reason Rehd mentions, but also consider this: one leg of a staple is pretty flat and makes a slit as much as a hole. I would rather have two small holes than one large hole. Also, epoxy will wick through the holes and the smaller the hole, the less this will occur. Keep your staples lined up as best you can for a neat appearance. You can use steam from an iron over a damp cloth, or another source of warm moisture to swell the wood fibers in the staple holes and diminish their appearance. Also consider the ease of pulling staples vs. nails (another pro of stapleless building is that it skips this step) as the number of these fasteners used is formidable. Two things to ensure when stapling is that your stapler does not mark the wood and that the staple crowns sit proud of the wood (so it doesn't leave marks and so that you can grab the staple with pliers later). A piece of cardboard taped to the bottom of the stapler will help with both counts.
Quite a few people have looked at my kayak and nobody has mentioned the staple holes. I don't regret using staples at all, though maybe someday stapleless building is a skill I can work on. Note that some others find it easier to use stapleless methods. The other thing is you are never committed to only one technique - use whatever works for you and in some of the twisted areas you may be forced to use multiple methods. There will be places that you might need the extra holding power of a finishing nail & if so, put it through a scrap piece of strip first in order to minimize damage & increase the hold.
Cheers,
Bryan
I would definitely use staples rather than nails for the reason Rehd mentions, but also consider this: one leg of a staple is pretty flat and makes a slit as much as a hole. I would rather have two small holes than one large hole. Also, epoxy will wick through the holes and the smaller the hole, the less this will occur. Keep your staples lined up as best you can for a neat appearance. You can use steam from an iron over a damp cloth, or another source of warm moisture to swell the wood fibers in the staple holes and diminish their appearance. Also consider the ease of pulling staples vs. nails (another pro of stapleless building is that it skips this step) as the number of these fasteners used is formidable. Two things to ensure when stapling is that your stapler does not mark the wood and that the staple crowns sit proud of the wood (so it doesn't leave marks and so that you can grab the staple with pliers later). A piece of cardboard taped to the bottom of the stapler will help with both counts.
Quite a few people have looked at my kayak and nobody has mentioned the staple holes. I don't regret using staples at all, though maybe someday stapleless building is a skill I can work on. Note that some others find it easier to use stapleless methods. The other thing is you are never committed to only one technique - use whatever works for you and in some of the twisted areas you may be forced to use multiple methods. There will be places that you might need the extra holding power of a finishing nail & if so, put it through a scrap piece of strip first in order to minimize damage & increase the hold.
Cheers,
Bryan
I used staples on my canoes and don't plan stapless for some time. The reason being is that I like the ability to strip a hull in a couple of days instead of weeks. Wife with job + 3 kids+ my own job working shifts adds up to little canoe time. As for using nails I agree with Bryan. Staples will be much simpler to use , and I would think that the area arond the water line that nails might pull into the strips
Willo
Willo
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David James
- Posts: 223
- Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 9:04 pm
- Location: Glenview, Illinois
Bill,
I used 17 awg nails (1 inch long) as I began my F17 and then went without about half way up the hull.
If you use nails you'll need to have a small piece of scrap under each nail so it can be removed later. Also, if you use nails, don't hammer them down too tight or you will get a dent on the back side of the plank where it touches the mould station. Round off the edge of the moulds to minimize that effect.
The nails held very well, and were easy to remove. The holes I filled in with wood glue and cedar sanding dust. I can't comment on the staple method - haven't used it.
My next boat will have no nail holes in it.
Dave in Glenview, Illinois
I used 17 awg nails (1 inch long) as I began my F17 and then went without about half way up the hull.
If you use nails you'll need to have a small piece of scrap under each nail so it can be removed later. Also, if you use nails, don't hammer them down too tight or you will get a dent on the back side of the plank where it touches the mould station. Round off the edge of the moulds to minimize that effect.
The nails held very well, and were easy to remove. The holes I filled in with wood glue and cedar sanding dust. I can't comment on the staple method - haven't used it.
My next boat will have no nail holes in it.
Dave in Glenview, Illinois
"If given six hours to chop down a tree, spend the first four sharpening your ax." - Abraham Lincoln
I used an electric brad nailer for my first stripper. I had a rheostat to control the electric current and thus the depth of the brad.
Had to give up on building with epoxy and glass after a couple boats (due to being alergic to the epoxy hardner ) so didn't give it a good chance but I did find it a bit of a PITA. OK, a big PITA!. At areas with tight twisting or not so tight twisting, the strips liked to pull away from the forms. The small brads don't have much holding power and the cedar strip would slip over the nail head via the nail hole.
The second I made "staple-less" so I cannot comment with real experience on the staple method but I'd say it would appear to be a much more effective method than the brad nails I first used.
Just a thought from my limited experience.
Had to give up on building with epoxy and glass after a couple boats (due to being alergic to the epoxy hardner ) so didn't give it a good chance but I did find it a bit of a PITA. OK, a big PITA!. At areas with tight twisting or not so tight twisting, the strips liked to pull away from the forms. The small brads don't have much holding power and the cedar strip would slip over the nail head via the nail hole.
The second I made "staple-less" so I cannot comment with real experience on the staple method but I'd say it would appear to be a much more effective method than the brad nails I first used.
Just a thought from my limited experience.
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David James
- Posts: 223
- Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 9:04 pm
- Location: Glenview, Illinois
Scot and Bill,
the nails I used were not finishing nails - they had a nice head on 'em. They were great for holding the more difficult twisting strips. The F17 was my first boat, and as I progressed with the planking, I found that my method of holding the strip in place until I got the nailing done was more than adequate without the nail. Slower, to be sure, but no more holes.
Dave
the nails I used were not finishing nails - they had a nice head on 'em. They were great for holding the more difficult twisting strips. The F17 was my first boat, and as I progressed with the planking, I found that my method of holding the strip in place until I got the nailing done was more than adequate without the nail. Slower, to be sure, but no more holes.
Dave
"If given six hours to chop down a tree, spend the first four sharpening your ax." - Abraham Lincoln
Phew...lot's to consider...
Thanks everyone for your suggestions, advice, and experiences.
In reading your replies, I realize there's lots of options available, but I think I'll go with slugo's ideas...Where it makes sense to use a nail - I'll use a nail. Where I need a staple, I'll use a staple. And if I can use a clamp, or tape, or a bungie cord, then so be it - that's what I'll use.
My thoughts are that until I get to the sharp turn the bilge, the strips should lock into each other fairly tightly anyway, and I should be able to get away without using something that makes a hole (though this might me just a rookie's pipe dream!). Then, when I get to the bilge, I'll be below the waterline. But - I'll be starting to strip next week, and I guess I'll find out for sure what my best method is.
For the record...this was my second question to the forum, and both times I've received nothing but great advice, support, and a better feeling of confidence about this project I am undertaking. Thanks once again.
Thanks everyone for your suggestions, advice, and experiences.
In reading your replies, I realize there's lots of options available, but I think I'll go with slugo's ideas...Where it makes sense to use a nail - I'll use a nail. Where I need a staple, I'll use a staple. And if I can use a clamp, or tape, or a bungie cord, then so be it - that's what I'll use.
My thoughts are that until I get to the sharp turn the bilge, the strips should lock into each other fairly tightly anyway, and I should be able to get away without using something that makes a hole (though this might me just a rookie's pipe dream!). Then, when I get to the bilge, I'll be below the waterline. But - I'll be starting to strip next week, and I guess I'll find out for sure what my best method is.
For the record...this was my second question to the forum, and both times I've received nothing but great advice, support, and a better feeling of confidence about this project I am undertaking. Thanks once again.
No Nails
Bill, this subject has been discussed here at length and each builder has his/her own method and reason for building a canoe in the first place. Some like to get on the water fast and others enjoy the journey getting to the lake.
Here's a few pictures of my stapleless journey:
http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a237/ ... spector16/
Which ever method(s) you choose, make sure you have some fun doing it. :smile
Ed...
PS, the clamping grooves are 1/4" x 1/4" and 5/8" from the edge...
Here's a few pictures of my stapleless journey:
http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a237/ ... spector16/
Which ever method(s) you choose, make sure you have some fun doing it. :smile
Ed...
PS, the clamping grooves are 1/4" x 1/4" and 5/8" from the edge...
Ed Alger