Sourcing Canoe wood in Ontario

[Cruiser]

I plan on building a Freedom Solo and have been looking to source my wood. I live near Toronto and I didn't think the search would be as long as it turned out to be.

This post is to share what I found, some of this may be obvious to veteran builders, but it may be of use to others who are in the same position. It will also be a chance to vet what I think I have learned, I am sure if it's wrong, it will be pointed out (then I may learn something else).

First ... if you source red cedar locally (remember, this is for Ontario), it may be eastern or western, you definitely want western, unless you don't care about weight. If you go to any of the sawmills, you almost certainly are getting eastern and not western cedar. The main differences are eastern is quite a bit heavier (I can post densities) and the wood is knotty and long lengths very hard to find. Western is a larger tree, straighter grain, lighter and longer lengths of clear are easier to find. You can get western at "the Big Box Stores", but I was not impressed with the quality. If you really want to know more, western is from the cypress family and eastern is from the juniper family, so really there is a big difference besides where it comes from.

Second ... I have an issue with a comment that keeps popping up here and there with posts, that basically states that wider boards produce less waste. There just doesn't seem to be anyway to support that based on how the wood gets cut into strips. There are two sources of waste in the cutting process (as best as I can figure) 1) the loss from the saw blade area and 2) the wood that is left over and isn't enough for the next strip. Regardless of the width of the wood, the blade losses are proportional and the left over is really not significant (when doing .25" strips). The exception to this would be if you don't select the flat grain boards (end grain looks like a crescent moon shape), then you need to be a little fancier with the cuts and the waste will be higher. This assumes you want to produce edge grain strips, which was the consensus best on an earlier post I made ( thank you forum).

Third ... when you consider point 2, that when selecting flat grain boards that are clear and of longer lengths, say 17' to 20' simply to avoid scarfing, wider boards are actually more expensive per board foot and much harder to find. When I talked to the lumber guy at the store ( yes I found one and am going in a week) he pointed out that simple 2x4s where the way to go, they are cheaper per board foot and much easier to get in long lengths. I checked his statement by doing the math, and he was absolutely right. I am just making this statement now, if someone asks, I will post the math and the cut scheme. And to be clear, this is a significant difference in cost ...

Fourth ... if you are cutting your own strips, make sure you just bite the bullet and buy a new thin kerf blade, that will make a big difference in waste ... and if it saves 1 board, that pretty much pays for the blade.

[Patricks Dad]

Cruiser,

I think the premise of bigger boards having less waste comes from a general theory that a big board has to come from a big tree. Big trees will have fewer knots (per board foot) to work around. If you buy small boards from small trees, you will tend to have a higher density of knots to work around (and hence more waste). As you point out, it has nothing to do with the thickness of the blade vs the thickness of the strip you cut from the board. Big boards are of course more scarce and hence more expensive. If you can find small boards that are indeed clear, that's great.

You might contact Ted Moore at Bear Mountain Boats. They offer pre-cut strips for sale on this very website. They source them from a guy in Toronto (I'm sorry but I forgot his name). Perhaps he might be willing to provide you access to planks of WRC (if he ships in from the west coast, perhaps you can piggy-back on shipping costs)... just thinking out load...

a thin kerf blade is indeed the way to go (or multiple thin kerf blades if you are gang cutting).

[Glen Smith]

I will comment on the cedar nomenclature you are using. There is Western Red Cedar, Eastern Red Cedar and Northern White Cedar to name only those three.

Eastern Red Cedar is an aromatic lumber used mainly in cedar closets and chests. It is an oily wood and doesn't really see much use in canoes though some people do incorporate it into a build.

Western Red Cedar is by far the most popular choice for building canoes and kayaks. It is being stocked by many large surface home renovation centres but they usually have a grade that is destined to decks and fences. If this is the only cedar found in your area (no matter where you are) you can always buy extra boards and cut out the knots and use butt joints in the construction.

Northern White Cedar is what most people call white cedar. The trees are not as large as the Western Red Cedar trees but it is available at many small lumber mills. It is a very good quality lumber and easy to work with, a bit less brittle that Western Red Cedar. The weight is pretty much the same as Western Red. I would go through available boards and select the lightest ones if the boards are straight and mostly knot-free.

Also, if Cedar is not available in your area, you can use other lumber species such as Basswood, Cypress, Spruce or Pine. To compensate for the higher weight of these lumber species, you can use thinner strips, 3/16" is used by many builders.

Most important, enjoy the build process.

[Cruiser]

All good comments, the purpose was to point out a few things and since there is a lot of eastern red cedar here, the pitfall of asking for red cedar, that doesn't matter in a lot places, but here it won't necessarily get you what you are after.

I have sourced a lumber yard and I am going there in a week, if it looks good I will followup with a post on the supplier (after I get first pick, lol). The clear cedar is a little pricier, but I think in the long run, it is better to source the best wood you can get ( I think I just stole that from CanoeCraft) with the lower waste etc. and it is actually one of the cheaper components of the canoe.

[Moonman]

Hi cruiser,

Welcome to the forum. Just to build on what Glenn mentioned, it appears to me that you are confusing the woods. Both northern white cedar and western red cedars are in the same genus - thuja. There is also a wood referred to eastern red cedar that indeed is actually part of the juniper family. When most builders refer to eastern cedar, they are in fact meaning northern white cedar. Historically northern white cedar was the premier boat building wood and most of the large trees were removed many many years ago, many even exported to Europe. Northern white cedar is in fact slightly lighter than western red at a specific gravity of .31 compared to .32. I have posted a specific gravity chart of many wood types here several years ago.

Besides bear mountain, other sources are Noah's, Oliver Lumber, monaghans, sometimes Century mill lumber, there is another shop that sells cedar in Hamilton and several other stores in southern Ontario. Royal wood shop in aurora often has some as well, although usually finished good 4 sides in 3/4 stock.

I have also bought a few clear pieces of lumber from big box stores. It's always a fluke, most all of the boards usually have some knots, but I check whenever I am there. Just this week I picked up a completely clear western red cedar post from Rona. 4 x 4, by 8 feet long. 22 bucks. You can get many scarfed strips out of a piece of lumber like that. Obviously, if you are looking to get all the wood for your boat right away, you'll need to check a more reliable source like the shops mentioned above.

Moonman.

[Cruiser]

More good info Moonman, I didn't really confuse the woods, but I did leave out that I wanted to cut my own strips and that is where the challenge comes in. I started the search for long strips and planned to buy shorter and scarf, if that didn't pan out. The northern white cedar I simply stopped looking for because it is not generally available in clear and long lengths (at least that was what I found).

The only points I was trying to make was that if you asked for red cedar (assuming you want to cut your own strips) at a lumber mill here, you may nor be getting what you think ... Eastern and Western red cedar are both called red cedar, you have to know the difference. A mill that cuts eastern red cedar will sell you red cedar ... you need to find somewhere that actually has western, if that is what you are looking for.

I concur that white cedar would be a great choice, if you don't mind scarfing (mostly lengths not over 16"), but for my first boat, I really want to use the full length strips.

[Cruiser]

When i started this post, I had sourced wood about 90 minutes from my home and I had intended on putting a rack together for the pickup to carry the longer lengths back. While I was in the box store picking up the wood for the rack, I started wondering if it was really worth all the effort and checked out the cedar there, which was 16' lengths, and I figured, although the waste would be higher, it was closer to home and the wood was less expensive. Now I was having second thoughts.

When I had called my favourite local specialty lumber yard and been told by the manger that they had no clear cedar over 16', I had moved them off my list, but now that I was thinking about using 16' lumber I decided to go have a "look see".

While checking out the cedar they did have, I noticed they had a stack of about 10 17'-19' clear cedar 2x4s, which I think are perfect for my needs. They deliver for a reasonable price, so I saved the cost of building the rack and a tank of gas, plus the wood was less expensive to boot. Apparently, they do get the longer lengths, but the supply is sort of unreliable, so they don't have it on the regular supply list.

So after all the looking, worrying and planning, it turns out I can get the wood locally ... I guess it pays to keep looking.

[Glen Smith]

One "modus operandi" is to print out a few pics of beautiful canoes found here or elsewhere on the web.
Bring the pics with you to the lumber yards and show them the pics. I did this at two lumber yards and the clerks were very cooperative and even picked out some of the best planks for me.