Hi everyone,
First time builder, and my first post. I've tried searching on this forum, and all over the internet for an answer to what I'm facing. I did a seal coat of epoxy as described in the Gilpatrick book, and the epoxy dried with a whole bunch of white streaks over the entire hull. I used a foam roller to roll on the epoxy, and then squeegee'd off the excess after a minute or two. I am using total boat 5:1 traditional resin with the fast cure hardener. I am using the fast hardener since it is getting cold here, and it is more conducive to cold weather application. I live near Chicago, so temps have been getting colder here. I had my heater running in the garage all day keeping the garage at 60 degrees F (well within the manufacturer recommended temp.) prior to laying on the epoxy in the evening, and let it keep running for a few hours after the epoxy was applied. Overnight the garage stayed above the minimum temperature required for the epoxy to still cure. The epoxied surface sat for at least 48 hours before I returned to working on it. I am using the calibrated pumps so I know my ratio is correct. Humidity was nothing out of the ordinary. My mixing was thorough, but perhaps I still didn't mix long enough? I pretty vigorously scrubbed with a wet scotchbrite pad and dried with a clean dry towel thinking it was amine blush, but it really didn't help much. After scrubbing the hull is smooth, and does not feel waxy. The epoxy surface is hard and doesn't scratch from my nail. When I wet the hull now with water the white disappears and isn't noticeable, so if this white streaking isn't a big deal it will clear out with subsequent coats of epoxy and final varnish.. This being my first project I am just trying to figure out what factors are causing this or if it is a problem so I can mitigate it as I move on with the project.
Here is a link with pictures to what I'm describing: https://photos.app.goo.gl/roqV6Uf41y7YWjk97
Thank you in advance for any thoughts or ideas!!!
Epoxy dried with white streaks
Re: Epoxy dried with white streaks
I'm no scientist ! And not familiar Total boat epoxy.
How big of a batch did you mix at one time? And how long did you mix ?
If it was my canoe, I'd wait until Spring, or get my canoe into a shop that was heated, at least 70 degrees constant. Sand the seal coat, and try again at warmer temps !
I see you didn't fill your staples holes. Those holes will cause you trouble if you don't. They seem impossible later on.
I'd dab wood glue ( I like Elmer's MAX for this) on those holes. I just use my finger, then sand.
You could also mix a small batch of epoxy and paint the holes with a small foam brush. Do this twice, an hour apart.
Other than those two issues, your hull looks great !
Good luck !
Jim
How big of a batch did you mix at one time? And how long did you mix ?
If it was my canoe, I'd wait until Spring, or get my canoe into a shop that was heated, at least 70 degrees constant. Sand the seal coat, and try again at warmer temps !
I see you didn't fill your staples holes. Those holes will cause you trouble if you don't. They seem impossible later on.
I'd dab wood glue ( I like Elmer's MAX for this) on those holes. I just use my finger, then sand.
You could also mix a small batch of epoxy and paint the holes with a small foam brush. Do this twice, an hour apart.
Other than those two issues, your hull looks great !
Good luck !
Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!
Re: Epoxy dried with white streaks
Jim thanks for the reply.Jim Dodd wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:12 pm I'm no scientist ! And not familiar Total boat epoxy.
How big of a batch did you mix at one time? And how long did you mix ?
If it was my canoe, I'd wait until Spring, or get my canoe into a shop that was heated, at least 70 degrees constant. Sand the seal coat, and try again at warmer temps !
I see you didn't fill your staples holes. Those holes will cause you trouble if you don't. They seem impossible later on.
I'd dab wood glue ( I like Elmer's MAX for this) on those holes. I just use my finger, then sand.
You could also mix a small batch of epoxy and paint the holes with a small foam brush. Do this twice, an hour apart.
Other than those two issues, your hull looks great !
Good luck !
Jim
Batch sizes we're about 10-12oz each.
I was contemplating filling the staple holes, but neither of the books made it seem necessary. I have noticed in build reports some people do it, and some people say not to bother. I was hoping the seal coat would fill them out, but that obviously didn't happen lol. I'll go back an fill to ensure no potential future issues.
It's gonna be awful hard looking at this thing all winter and not being able to make progress
Maybe we'll get some unseasonably warm days or run the heater hotter!I sent the question and pictures out to total boat to see if they had any thoughts.
I'll report back if they have any ideas, what my course of action will be, and what the outcome was.
Re: Epoxy dried with white streaks
This is one of two issues. Moisture on or in the wood will cause this. If you wet sanded the bare wood, it really needed a long dry time especially in the shop conditions you describe. Those conditions are also the other issue. When the hull is cold or resin is cold it is thicker, stiffer than when its nice and warm. Air that gets entrained when rolling the resin on the hull will surface and release when the resin is warm, but stay entrained when it is cold and stiff. This is one problem with rolling on resin.
The temperature range given by the resin manufacturer is really for cure. It will properly cure and achieve its characteristics(clarity is not one of those characteristics) at those temps. Your seal coat cured just fine it just has some air entrained. A much warmer shop will help.
The only time I had this happen was trying to meet a deadline and working in a cool shop. It was when putting on glass on a dark, chocolate colored cedar and it looked terrible. I ended up painting boat a pretty midnight blue.
Warm your shop a bunch more or wait for warmer weather before you try applying glass. You could sand the seal coat off if you wish. That option will not be available when you apply the glass.
The temperature range given by the resin manufacturer is really for cure. It will properly cure and achieve its characteristics(clarity is not one of those characteristics) at those temps. Your seal coat cured just fine it just has some air entrained. A much warmer shop will help.
The only time I had this happen was trying to meet a deadline and working in a cool shop. It was when putting on glass on a dark, chocolate colored cedar and it looked terrible. I ended up painting boat a pretty midnight blue.
Warm your shop a bunch more or wait for warmer weather before you try applying glass. You could sand the seal coat off if you wish. That option will not be available when you apply the glass.
Re: Epoxy dried with white streaks
Good ! Total boat should be able to help !
I've had my share of troubles with staple holes, but still believe it's the way to go. If you do a good job of filling them and any cracks and gaps, there really no need for a seal coat.
You've done a nice job, a good clear finish would look great on that hull !
Good advise from Sedges also !
Jim
I've had my share of troubles with staple holes, but still believe it's the way to go. If you do a good job of filling them and any cracks and gaps, there really no need for a seal coat.
You've done a nice job, a good clear finish would look great on that hull !
Good advise from Sedges also !
Jim
Keep your paddle wet and your seat dry!
Re: Epoxy dried with white streaks
If I undertstand correctly, you prepared the hull, put on a seal coat ... let it setup for 2 days, then sanded the hull and the marks showed up? You wetout the hull and they disappeared and came back when it dried.
So my comments are based on that understanding, and BTW, thank you for posting pics, makes it so much easier to understand. It may be that those areas are actuaily just saturated with epoxy ... the pattern looks like the passes you would have made with the scraper. Epoxy sands out to white, which will go clear again when wetted with water or more epoxy or the varnish at final coat time. Those areas may just have more epoxy than the surrounding wood and the saturated areas have gone white with sanding.
If this is the case, when you start glassing all of those marks will just disappear ... so I would suggest you continue to the glassing step and when the glass is all hung and ready to go, pull back (carefully) a small section to reveal a few marks, mix up a small batch of epoxy and wetout the exposed marks and see if they go away. If they do, I would just put the section back down and plow ahead. I would also reduce the batch size and make sure to mix for at least 2 minutes per batch, you can't overmix, but you sure can undermix. Also, don't be too vigorous, you don't want to get a lot of air bubbles in the mix.
The logic on the above (and why I didn't suggest just testing an area) is that the area you test may not match the surrounding area if it is left to setup, this way you can see what the marked area will do and then have the option to continue or bail, depending on what you see.
The alternative is to sand and vacuum the hull again and try the coat again, which seems like a lot of extra work ... personally I never use a seal coat as it just seems like an extra layer of epoxy and an additional sanding step ...
Also with Jim on keeping the temp up in the shop, you do not want to fool with the lower range ... this will significantly impact setup time. If you don't already use one, I would also have a fan going to keep the shop temp more uniform, just a heater gives hot and cold spots that you may not notice. Once up to temp leave the shop there for a few days.
I will leave any staple hole comments to Jim or else we will be going back and forth for days ... jking, but he uses staples and I don't.
Keep us in the loop on what you decide.
Brian
So my comments are based on that understanding, and BTW, thank you for posting pics, makes it so much easier to understand. It may be that those areas are actuaily just saturated with epoxy ... the pattern looks like the passes you would have made with the scraper. Epoxy sands out to white, which will go clear again when wetted with water or more epoxy or the varnish at final coat time. Those areas may just have more epoxy than the surrounding wood and the saturated areas have gone white with sanding.
If this is the case, when you start glassing all of those marks will just disappear ... so I would suggest you continue to the glassing step and when the glass is all hung and ready to go, pull back (carefully) a small section to reveal a few marks, mix up a small batch of epoxy and wetout the exposed marks and see if they go away. If they do, I would just put the section back down and plow ahead. I would also reduce the batch size and make sure to mix for at least 2 minutes per batch, you can't overmix, but you sure can undermix. Also, don't be too vigorous, you don't want to get a lot of air bubbles in the mix.
The logic on the above (and why I didn't suggest just testing an area) is that the area you test may not match the surrounding area if it is left to setup, this way you can see what the marked area will do and then have the option to continue or bail, depending on what you see.
The alternative is to sand and vacuum the hull again and try the coat again, which seems like a lot of extra work ... personally I never use a seal coat as it just seems like an extra layer of epoxy and an additional sanding step ...
Also with Jim on keeping the temp up in the shop, you do not want to fool with the lower range ... this will significantly impact setup time. If you don't already use one, I would also have a fan going to keep the shop temp more uniform, just a heater gives hot and cold spots that you may not notice. Once up to temp leave the shop there for a few days.
I will leave any staple hole comments to Jim or else we will be going back and forth for days ... jking, but he uses staples and I don't.
Keep us in the loop on what you decide.
Brian
Re: Epoxy dried with white streaks
MD, I looked up the resin and I have a question, why are you using the Fast Cure hardener instead of the crystal clear version ... for strip building you almost always want the clear hardener version?
At least I believe this is what you are talking about : http://www.totalboat.com/product/51-epoxy-resin/
The clear version has a different mix ratio ... so maybe check what you have, what you want and make sure you have the right dispensers.
Brian
At least I believe this is what you are talking about : http://www.totalboat.com/product/51-epoxy-resin/
The clear version has a different mix ratio ... so maybe check what you have, what you want and make sure you have the right dispensers.
Brian
Re: Epoxy dried with white streaks
There was no moisture on the surface prior to epoxying. I didn't wet sand or wipe the hull with wet rag prior to epoxying. The dust was vacuumed and wiped with tack cloth after the final sanding. Thanks for the feedback on the cool shop! The hull wasn't cold either as the heater was running all day prior to application, but I am still going to increase the temp in the shop for next time. The epoxy was kept in my house at 70 degrees F so the viscosity was normal during mixing.sedges wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:44 am This is one of two issues. Moisture on or in the wood will cause this. If you wet sanded the bare wood, it really needed a long dry time especially in the shop conditions you describe. Those conditions are also the other issue. When the hull is cold or resin is cold it is thicker, stiffer than when its nice and warm. Air that gets entrained when rolling the resin on the hull will surface and release when the resin is warm, but stay entrained when it is cold and stiff. This is one problem with rolling on resin.
The temperature range given by the resin manufacturer is really for cure. It will properly cure and achieve its characteristics(clarity is not one of those characteristics) at those temps. Your seal coat cured just fine it just has some air entrained. A much warmer shop will help.
The only time I had this happen was trying to meet a deadline and working in a cool shop. It was when putting on glass on a dark, chocolate colored cedar and it looked terrible. I ended up painting boat a pretty midnight blue.
Warm your shop a bunch more or wait for warmer weather before you try applying glass. You could sand the seal coat off if you wish. That option will not be available when you apply the glass.
Thank you. I will be filling the staple holes. Looking for as little trouble down the road as possible!Jim Dodd wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:53 am Good ! Total boat should be able to help !
I've had my share of troubles with staple holes, but still believe it's the way to go. If you do a good job of filling them and any cracks and gaps, there really no need for a seal coat.
You've done a nice job, a good clear finish would look great on that hull !
Good advise from Sedges also !
Jim
Thanks for the reply and input, Brian.Cruiser wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:14 am If I undertstand correctly, you prepared the hull, put on a seal coat ... let it setup for 2 days, then sanded the hull and the marks showed up? You wetout the hull and they disappeared and came back when it dried.
So my comments are based on that understanding, and BTW, thank you for posting pics, makes it so much easier to understand. It may be that those areas are actuaily just saturated with epoxy ... the pattern looks like the passes you would have made with the scraper. Epoxy sands out to white, which will go clear again when wetted with water or more epoxy or the varnish at final coat time. Those areas may just have more epoxy than the surrounding wood and the saturated areas have gone white with sanding.
If this is the case, when you start glassing all of those marks will just disappear ... so I would suggest you continue to the glassing step and when the glass is all hung and ready to go, pull back (carefully) a small section to reveal a few marks, mix up a small batch of epoxy and wetout the exposed marks and see if they go away. If they do, I would just put the section back down and plow ahead. I would also reduce the batch size and make sure to mix for at least 2 minutes per batch, you can't overmix, but you sure can undermix. Also, don't be too vigorous, you don't want to get a lot of air bubbles in the mix.
The logic on the above (and why I didn't suggest just testing an area) is that the area you test may not match the surrounding area if it is left to setup, this way you can see what the marked area will do and then have the option to continue or bail, depending on what you see.
The alternative is to sand and vacuum the hull again and try the coat again, which seems like a lot of extra work ... personally I never use a seal coat as it just seems like an extra layer of epoxy and an additional sanding step ...
Also with Jim on keeping the temp up in the shop, you do not want to fool with the lower range ... this will significantly impact setup time. If you don't already use one, I would also have a fan going to keep the shop temp more uniform, just a heater gives hot and cold spots that you may not notice. Once up to temp leave the shop there for a few days.
I will leave any staple hole comments to Jim or else we will be going back and forth for days ... jking, but he uses staples and I don't.
Keep us in the loop on what you decide.
Brian
The streaks showed up prior to me sanding anything. They were there after the 2 days of curing. I'm aware the epoxy will sand out to white, but no sanding has been done :/ Thanks for the comment on my mixing. I probably did mix the epoxy too aggressively which I'm sure introduced more air bubbles than normal! Good Idea on running a fan in conjunction with the heater to distribute the heat.
I went with the fast cure as it is more conducive with cold weather application. I'm positive that my mix ratio is correct.Cruiser wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:21 am MD, I looked up the resin and I have a question, why are you using the Fast Cure hardener instead of the crystal clear version ... for strip building you almost always want the clear hardener version?
At least I believe this is what you are talking about : http://www.totalboat.com/product/51-epoxy-resin/
The clear version has a different mix ratio ... so maybe check what you have, what you want and make sure you have the right dispensers.
Brian
Thank you.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Thanks everyone for the input! A lot of good advice I will heed, and changes I am going to make.
The initial reply from total boat was that the fast cure doesn't dry clear. Their response made it seem like this is perfectly normal for this product (I don't think they looked at the pictures for the first reply). I saw on the product description that it cures "slight amber". I was okay with amber at the time as I figured it would add a darker rich tone to the wood. I think "opaque white" is a more accurate description than "slight amber". When I replied and brought this up to them they then replied again saying the streaking looks like the clear areas are areas with more epoxy, and the white areas look like areas that were applied thinner and then the wood absorbed more of the epoxy; basically an uneven application and absorption of epoxy by the wood.. They said I can keep applying the 5:1 fast cure, then do a final application with their high performance clear coat epoxy. I think this will be my plan of action so I don't waste all of the resin and hardener I already purchased. Especially since it still appears clear when wetted with a damp rag now. Worst case scenario is I paint the outside of the hull, and use a tried and true product for the inside of the hull..my fault for straying from the norm to begin with.
I will be filling staple holes before moving on to eliminate any potential cause for problems when I fiberglass the hull.
I will report back with findings and outcomes including pictures when progress is made!! You guys rock.
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White River
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:53 am
Re: Epoxy dried with white streaks
What kind of heater are you running? Kerosene or propane fired heaters will put a lot of moisture into your work space quickly. This could be another source of moisture for sure.
Todd
Todd
Re: Epoxy dried with white streaks
White River wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:45 am What kind of heater are you running? Kerosene or propane fired heaters will put a lot of moisture into your work space quickly. This could be another source of moisture for sure.
Todd
[/quote
It's an electric heater.
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Patricks Dad
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:11 pm
- Location: Warrenville, Illinois
Re: Epoxy dried with white streaks
Where near Chicago do you live?
Re: Epoxy dried with white streaks
I'm in Lemont. Southwest burbs.
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Patricks Dad
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:11 pm
- Location: Warrenville, Illinois
Re: Epoxy dried with white streaks
I'm about 20 miles NW of you
Re: Epoxy dried with white streaks
Nice! I'll keep that in mind I'm case I mess something up and desperately need experienced help!
Re: Epoxy dried with white streaks
Just wanted to follow-up on this. The problem was definitely uneven application 
. Certain areas had been squeegeed more than others causing an uneven sealer coat. Thank you everyone for your advice. This is my first time working with epoxy on such a large surface, and couldn't tell if it was amine or some other issue. I have decided to fill the staple holes, and wait for temperatures to rise again before attempting any more epoxying steps.
. Certain areas had been squeegeed more than others causing an uneven sealer coat. Thank you everyone for your advice. This is my first time working with epoxy on such a large surface, and couldn't tell if it was amine or some other issue. I have decided to fill the staple holes, and wait for temperatures to rise again before attempting any more epoxying steps.