Hardwood for gunwales

[doe4rae]

Finished glassing inside the canoe last night and had MUCH better results than I did for the outside. Pretty happy about that part of the job being behind me. I have been calling everywhere trying to find White Ash in a 16' length to use for the gunwales. I was sure I would not have to resort to making a scarf joint but I may. The closest dealer I can find that can provide the Ash in the lengths I need is 3 hours from me into Minnesota. Not that I mind a drive. However, would there be any disadvantage really from using hard maple which is readily available in 8 and 12 foot lengths? I can deal with the scarf joints. I read about a lot of people using Ash and wonder why not maple? Is it better to drive 3 hours to get the 16 foot lengths of Ash or scarf some hard maple?

[pyrofly73]

Ash will be a lot easier to work with. it bends easier and is lighter than maple. not to mention is the traditional wood of choice.

That being said, maple would look great (light in color), would be harder to ding and dent, and is much harder to break. If using maple I'd try to find grain as straight as possible and quarter sawn. When you then rip it you will end up with flat cut. I would steam them til they felt like noodles(well not so much but you get the idea)or even better laminate them from several thinner strips using epoxy since they will not be encapsulated.

Also don't forget to put several temporary thwarts in the boat and try to work on both sides equally(port and starboard) this will prevent the maple from putting a wierd bend in the boat.

the very cool thing about maple is that when it comes time to make the thwarts you could find some very figured grains (curly, birds eye, tiger, maybe even a burl) to work with and you would have an incredible looking detail.

cant wait to see the progress.

Xavier

[Tom in MN]

I have scarfed gunnels on every canoe I have ever built (about 5 of them) no matter the length. full length gunnels are a luxury that I have not the time or money for. I am always on the lookout for that white ash log 20' long that will supply me with a lifetime of full length gunnels, but haven't found it yet. Make a jig, cut the scarf on your table saw, pre wet the glue surfaces with epoxy, clamp them together an move forward. The 6 hours away for full length gunnels would be better spent on other things IMO.

[Tom in MN]

Oh, an one more thing. Any hardwood will work for gunnels. I have made them out of walnut, ash, mahogany. It really doesn't make much difference. Inwales can be a little challenging to bend with some species, but if you keep them 3/8" wide they should be fine. Maple would make excellent gunnels. To me it is more about the look of the canoe and what color the wood is vs. which one is prefered. Ash is the best due to its high strength to weight ratio and flexibility, but in reality there is little difference in how they perform on the canoe.

[doe4rae]

... okay, you had me convinced to use the maple after weighing the importance of "looking great" and having "less dings and dents" compared to 'traditional' and 'light'. I do want to keep teh canoe relatively light weight but this is not as important to me as aesthetics and durability.

Then I got to the part about "putting a weird bend in the boat" and that freaked me out a little. Still... I trust, that using the advice you gave me with thwarts and putting it together the way you said that this horror is entirely avoidable.

Here's another thought... would it look bad to use the longer Ash pieces (whole) inside with scuppers, tapered etc etc and then just use the maple scarf jointed on the outer gunwale? I also plan to counterbore screws on the outside and plug with contrasting color wood (cherry probably). I will clamp and glue the inner gunnel. Too much information here and plans change daily but would it look 'askew' to use the inner gunnel as Ash and the outer as Maple? Is there so much difference in the color and grain of the wood or the way they varnish, that I would find it 'unbalanced' looking?

If I laminated strips of maple, would they not be even more difficult to bend at the bow and stern?

[pyrofly73]

The deforming I was talking about is if you try to use one solid piece of maple 3/8" x3/4" for the outer rails. it might have enough spring to bend the hull a bit weird; It's doubtful, but possible. Doing both sides at the same time evens out the stresses and should make things bend evenly. The temporary thwarts just ensure that the intended shape of the boat is kept.

Mind you all this is from a guy that hasn't yet built his first canoe, but I have built much bigger floating objects and in principle they are identical. Traditional teak rub rails on sail and power boats are essentially the same thing only in much bigger dimensions and lengths. they normally finished up being about 3" thick with four 3/4" laminations.

Anyway back on the subject If i was you i would just test the idea before you dove head first into it. I would first try a solid 3/8" X3/4" piece and see how bad it is to bend. If its horribly stiff you can steam and then clamp in place so that it can hold the shape. Or you can take the laminating approach by ripping it to 1/8" x 3/4" and then rip 2 more pieces to equal the original 3/8". Put a piece of blue tape along the entire length of the outwale. wear gloves make a big mess with epoxy and then clamp every 6-8" it will bend very easy at this thickness and you should not have to worry about your hull deforming. essentially its just like making the inner stems except that the canoe itself is your form.

You will have to worry about your strips lining up top to bottom. so you might only want to do one at a time. the blue tape will let you remove when the epoxy has cured to scrape the drips, sand, and router. then you can epoxy them back onto the hull as a unit. no screws. no plugs and indestructible.

cool things to think about...
if you laminate you can make the laminations a design element. for example maple cherry maple. or maple, black epoxy,maple ,black epoxy, maple. In other words The glue lines being the design element. You can even make the center strip in little pieces... like a feature strip in the outwales. How crazy you want to get? The other neat thing is that the scarfs can be offset making the whole thing even stronger. all this mind you adds weight.

one piece is classy and clean. and less labor intensive.

as for the ash/ maple mix. it depends on your wood. the grain is very different and maple is very light in color. as for "looking bad". only you can make that call. i would try to keep the outers and inners looking the same, but that's just me.

oh yeah and 6 hours drive equals a tank and a half of gas so don't forget to add that to the cost.

[John Michne]

Dawne -

Here is a link to a section on my web site about making and installing scuppered gunwales. Too big to detail here.

http://www.michneboat.com/Gunwales.htm

John

[Jim Dodd]

Hi Dawne
Stick with Ash, and scarf. Ash is better suited than maple because of the flex issue. Red Oak is poris[spell] and will split unless sealed very well.

As for a supplier Ash should be available in Neb. Look for a local sawmill. Or do what I did. I took a nite woodworking class at school. Through them I was able to get up to 14ft. length ash. Contact your local High school shop teacher. It worked for me.

Good Luck !
Jim

[doe4rae]

I really love the idea of the laminations and creating a design element but 'labor intensive' it would be and the idea of trying to keep the stack in place and smearing epoxy everywhere was a deal breaker. (Also this is my first woodworking project Xavier... and I think this might call for more experience than I've gained so far!) This is a fabulous idea though for another project, one perhaps where I will have more colors or types of contrasting lengths from scraps to play with. Since I can't anticipate what the finished Ash and Maple would look like together AND the 6 hour drive was less appealing with every snowflake that fell yesterday...... I opted to use the maple pieces both inside and out. Besides I just wanted to move forward on the project already! The Maple was a bugger to rip cut (saw marks) and I'm a little nervous about the bend but the bow and stern recurve is not major and with a 3/8 taper and a little steam I think I can dry fit them for a day then glue them on. While making the scarf joints (x4) last night for the inwales (7 hours) I started to re-think the scuppers. It will be slow going for that because I will be doing them all with a chisel. However... I will take a look at the link John shared and maybe find my inspiration.
Jim... I will definately check out the place in Nebraska. After thinking about what Tom said about that 20' Ash tree that will supply a lifetime of full length gunnels I asked my husband 'why are we constantly burning Ash in our woodstove' and where the heck is he getting it?? Turns out the river bottom is FULL of Ash trees. I believe I can get one of those nice tall trees milled this summer - put some stickers between the boards and then I'll have my own Ash for the next boat! (There. Its official. I want to build another one!)
Thanks everyone.


:smile

[doe4rae]

... i forgot to mention this but it seems like a remark that could only be appreciated in this type of forum. So far the only types of wood I've worked with hand tools are cedar, maple, and pine. Pulling the spokeshave across the Maple last night as I shaped the scarf joint, I couldn't find a way to describe the 'luxurious' feel of those shavings. Almost a silky feel. And for a wood that is THAT hard, it is really pleasurable to work with using either the block plane or spokeshave. I found it so on the outer stems as well. I am not sure if one normally refers to wood types as having personalities, but I've found the maple to be very well behaved and responsive to shaping.

[edmontonian]

Hi doe4rae,

Using ash is easier to be sure. I had success in testing scarf joints using ash before I built my first canoe.
However, I selected tiger maple for the outwales on a Prospector canoe and it really gave the boat a Wow! factor once the varnish was applied. The board used was a 12 foot 1x6 standing upright at the Home Depot maple bin and its beauty captivated me.
An 8:1 scarf joint at the centre section was treated with standard unthickened epoxy for about 20 minutes, and then the joint was clamped for 36 hours using thickened/coloured epoxy with a minimal of sawdust and cabosil. Nothing gave way during the installation. Both the bow and stern outwale areas were tapered to 3/8" thick over 36 inches. This lent to easier bending of the hard maple at the ends.
Take your time, steam any section (if it seems needed) during installation, and enjoy yourself. Once you start moving using your selected wood, a rhythm develops and the process establishes itself as you proceed.

edmontonian

[pyrofly73]

nice way to make scuppers john.... very cool. I would definately invest in a drill press before trying scuppers with a chisel. You are very brave dawne.

hand tools with maple are ok until you encounter the butcher block effect of trying to cross cut. if you consistantly get burn marks while ripping the maple trying cutting a hair oversize then running through the saw again. cleans it up really nicely.

Sounds like you have everything under control post more pics.

Xavier

[manfromthepast]

i used maple tapered outwales and tapered scuppered inwales on my 16' prospector with no issues of pulling the canoe out of shape. each outwale and inwale was made of three pcs of wood with scarf joints at the 1/3 points of the canoe. the most difficult area of the outwales to secure is at the bow and stern where the shape goes from concave to convex. i started the glueing from the middle and clamped every couple of inches out to each end. i only used fasteners at the bow and stern and i recessed them and put walnut dowsels over them. i also pre-drilled 1/4" partial depth holes at about 6" on center in the outwale before installation and later glued walnut dowels in for a decorative effect. i was afraid these holes may have created a weak spot when i went to install the outwales, but they bent fine. good luck